Russian and Greek, TAC2014 (Language Learning Log) Language Learning Forum

Russian and Greek, TAC2014
Tags: Greek \| Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) \| Russian
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Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log

99 messages over 13 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 2 ... 12 13 Next >>

Ogrim
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France
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Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian

Message 9 of 99

03 January 2013 at 10:59am | IP Logged

Today I came across the following text in Wikipedia concerning the polite form in Greek.

Quote:

In Modern Greek, εσείς (eseís, second person plural) with second person plural verb conjugation is used as the formal counterpart of εσύ (esý, second person singular) when talking to strangers and elders, although in everyday life it is common to speak to strangers of your age or younger using the singular pronoun. In addition, the informal second person singular is used even with older people you are acquainted with, depending on the level of mutual familiarity.
Since the formal εσείς (eseís) has become less common outside schools and workplaces, many people often do not know which form to use (because using a formal version might sound too snobbish even to an elder and using the informal version might sound inappropriate to some strangers) and thus prefer to replace verbs with nouns (avoiding the dilemma) until enough information on the counterpart's intentions is gathered in order to choose between formal or informal second person pronoun and verb conjugation. A good rule of thumb is that singular accompanies first names and plural accompanies surnames with title (Mr, Mrs, etc.). Exceptions are rare, for example younger schoolchildren may address their teacher in the plural, title and first name, or an officer may address a soldier in the singular and surname. The sequence singular-title-surname is a faux pas that can often indicate lack of education, of good manners, or of both.
The modern social custom when using the Greek language in Greece is to ask the other person "may we speak in the singular?" in which the other person is expected to answer "yes" and afterwards the discussion continues using the informal εσύ (esý); it is unthinkable for the other person to answer "no" or show preference for plural forms, and for this reason one should not even ask this question to a person of high status, such as a professional. Therefore, asking this question can itself be considered a form of disrespect in some social situations. Likewise, not asking this question and simply using the singular without prior explicit or implicit agreement would also be considered disrespectful in various social contingencies. In other cases, even using the formal plural (without a question) could also be considered offensive. A person being inappropriately addressed in the singular will often indicate their displeasure by insisting on responding in the plural, in a display of irony that may or may not be evident to the other party. A similar social custom exists with the words κύριε (Mr/Sir) and κυρία (Mrs/Madam) which can show both respect and a form of "mock respect" which essentially communicates disapproval, often depending on the voice intonation and the social situation. Overall, the distinction between formal and informal forms of address and when to use each can be quite subtle and not easily discernible by a non-native speaker.

I'd be very interested if a native or advanced speaker could confirm this information. For many languages, the appropriate use of formal and informal forms of address is one of the most difficult aspects, from a social/cultural point of view.
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Solfrid Cristin
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Norway
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Message 10 of 99

03 January 2013 at 11:06am | IP Logged

Very interesting - and very confusing! It reminds me of when I learned French as a kid, and my teacher told me there was no point in learning the informal "tu" as we would never get close enough to a Frenchman to use anything but the formal "vous". I still use "vous" with most of the French people I know, but I feel like a dinosaur when I do it. I would obviously use the informal form with friends, but most of the people I deal with are middle aged business associates, a lot of them high level directors, and it feels very wrong to say "tu" to them.

I look forward to learning more about the Greek usage.
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tarvos
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Message 11 of 99

03 January 2013 at 11:18am | IP Logged

T/V distinction is always annoying. I remember that I addressed my flatmates in French as
"vous" though, and they told me to use "tu"; and then I responded "but there's two of
you!" :)
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Ogrim
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France
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Message 12 of 99

03 January 2013 at 11:42am | IP Logged

Cristina, I have now been living in France for five years and I am still not always sure what form to use. However, in France, "vous" is always the safe choice if you are uncertain. Here, you would never "tutoyer" a waiter, shop attendant or any other stranger.

Sometimes it is difficult though. When I came here, my first Director, a French lady, would say "vous" to anyone of inferior or superior rank, but "tu" to those of equal rank. Those of inferior rank had to say "vous", but those of superior rank could say "tu". My current Director is also French, but he says "tu" to all colleagues and expects everyone to say "tu" to him. Still, I think the tendency is for young people to use "tu" a lot quicker than the older generations. It is not that long ago that the son- or daughter-in-law would "vouvoyer" the parents-in-law all their life. I must admit, if a teenager says "vous" to me, it makes me feel really old!

As regards Greece, I also found the Wikipedia article confusing. I am wondering if Greece is heading in the same direction as Spain, where "usted" is used less and less, and you mostly only hear it in formal settings, e.g. politican talk and in interviews with authorities.
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renaissancemedi
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Greece
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Message 13 of 99

03 January 2013 at 12:29pm | IP Logged

Actually this information on the greek forms is both accurate and detailed.

Use plural for formal situations, business meetings, when addressing older people or people that have status or an office. Use plural when you meet someone for the first time, and if it's a friendly occasion you immediately get the response : please call me (first name). That means let's talk in the singular form.

You use the singular form with people your age, but not if you are over 40 or so.

The sarcastic use of mr/mrs is evident from the tone of voice, but I don't see why anyone whould do that to a foreigner trying to speak greek! Which brings me to the last thing: if you are not a native speaker, many things will be forgiven, even the wrong form of grammatical politeness, as long as you are respectful in every other way.

edit: If you are being introduced, the person who makes the introduction gives the clue. If they say: meet mr papadopoulos, you use plural. If they say: meet my good friend John, go for singular.

Edited by renaissancemedi on 03 January 2013 at 12:39pm
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Ogrim
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France
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Message 14 of 99

03 January 2013 at 2:22pm | IP Logged

Thank you renaissancemedi for confirming what is in the article. Good to see that Wikipedia can be a reliable source of information.

So from what you say, and given my age, I should probably always start off with the polite form whenever I get to the stage that I can actually speek Greek with the natives. Then I would leave it to the other person to suggest using εσύ.
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Ogrim
Heptaglot
Senior Member
France
Joined 4643 days ago
991 posts - 1896 votes

Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian

Message 15 of 99

04 January 2013 at 3:56pm | IP Logged

This year I have decided to change my approach to learning Russian. Since last summer I have mainly worked with Colloquial Russian, supplemented by Assimil (for audio mostly), and a Linguaphone course from the 1970s. This has given me a good basis, but I have spent less time than I should on exercises, as I have been eager to advance and learn more. So the first few months of this year I will set monthly goals (thanks to LanguageSponge for the idea) and approach it in a structured manner.

I certainly intend to continue with Colloquial, and I have bought Colloquial Russian 2: The next step in language learning. It looks promising enough, with texts on mass media, transport, tourism, culture and politics in Russia. For listening, I will continue with Assimil. I may also revisit Linguaphone. At the same time, however, each month I will focus on a couple of grammar points and work more intensely on these to ensure that I master them well.

So here are my targets for January:

Colloquial Russian:
Revise lessons 18 to 20 in the first book. Start on first lesson in book 2.

Assimil:
Work through lessons 35 to 50 (mainly as a listening/shadowing exercise).

Grammar:
Active and passive participles
Gerunds
Review verbs of motion. (I still struggle a lot with these, and I need to make them stick.)
Review declension of cardinal numerals

Most days I will also try to find a short article in Russian online media in order to get additional reading practice and enhance my vocabulary. Today I read an open letter written by Gérard Depardieu who has just been made a Russian citizen. The link is
here if you are interested.
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Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
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Norway
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Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

Message 16 of 99

04 January 2013 at 4:15pm | IP Logged

I have printed out the article, and will bring it home to read over the week end - I am excited to see whether I will actually be able to read native material (probably not :-( But it is worth a try. I love being on a Greek team where I get extra Russian material!!!

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