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Gary’s TAC 2013 - PAX | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 97 of 160 09 August 2013 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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No language meetups this week, but I went to the CS meeting where I was able to have a couple of brief Italian conversations and even a few sentences in French as I bumped into a guy I know from the French meetup there. So not much speaking, but enough to keep the fire burning. Overall these meetings are really just a place to socialise and meet people, and if I get any language practice that's just a nice bonus.
On motivation (rant warning): I was thinking about my motivation for French, which mostly means asking myself why the hell I'm still learning it. It goes without saying that I like the language, and to an extent the country and the culture, but I've come to the conclusion that these days it's mostly just to feed my ego, along with a dash of sunken-cost fallacy of wanting to finish what I started since I've already put so much work into it, and the constant feeling that I'm "almost there" in terms of fluency. Every time a French person refuses to speak French with me, answers me in English, gives me condescending remarks and questions about which things I know how to say or which greetings and stock phrases I've learnt yet, enthusiastically proposes a Skype or real-life exchange and then cancels at the last minute or stops responding or doesn't turn up, happily takes advantage of me and other learners for English practice but point-blank refuses to help us in return, and generally doesn't take my desire to practise and improve seriously, I feel like I have something to prove and I need to "win them over" and "convince" them. And that really makes me want to improve. Any motivation is a good thing, but at the same time, I wonder if it's a bit unhealthy. It puts me under more pressure when I speak; it does cause some frustration and stress; the motivation itself might actually be a bad thing as it's encouraging me to continue to pour time and effort into French when I could be spending it on something more rewarding and fulfilling *cough*Spanish*cough*; and worst of all, I wonder if it's just a case of trying to fill the metaphorical bucket with the hole in the bottom and I'll still encounter these attitudes no matter how good my French gets, or at least if it's a paradoxical situation where reaching the level where people will take me seriously is only possible if people take me seriously. Don't get me wrong, I've had a lot of great experiences and met some great people thanks to my French. And it's not like nobody takes me seriously; there are some kind and helpful people at the meetups, not to mention all the service staff in France who happily indulged me. I do sometimes focus too much on the negative, and I think the fact that it's almost always people of around my age who are guilty makes it seem worse because they're my peers and the people I relate to most and would most like to speak to. But if I consider opportunity cost and the many times more great experiences and people that learning Spanish would have no doubt opened doors to, the positives of French pale a bit in comparison. Yes I think the grass is greener on the other side, but I believe that by now I have more than enough evidence to support that view. Anyway all this doesn't change any of my plans, and I think it's a good thing that I've given myself the deadline of stopping/pausing serious French study at the end of the year, as it'll stop things from getting out of hand. In other news, Italian is still going great. Italian Super Challenge Films: 82 done, 18 to go. Conversation hours: 100 done. Edit: forgot to mention, I'm going to a Mediterranean music concert/party this weekend. I imagine there will be hundreds of Italians. Edited by garyb on 09 August 2013 at 12:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 98 of 160 09 August 2013 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I totally understand your French motivation trouble. Of course it makes you want to prove yourself to them and just get to the level at which they would all take you seriously. If it didn't, you would have given up ages ago. So would I. But it is not healthy, you are right, especially over longer periods of time. It's quite similar to other unpleasant situations I have experienced a few times in past, such as boys changing interesting debates into worse for me because "girls don't play videogames", "girls don't read sci-fi and they find it boring". But those people began to realize that it was wrong and annoying quite soon. The French often don't.
I still just cannot see why this is such a trouble for the French. The Spanish or German were always totally ok towards me in this. And my Spanish or German are at 10% of my French skills on a good day. Even the Italians didn't mind putting up with my three or so phrases! (btw I!ll need to quickly learn some survival Italian in September. :-) ). What kind of helped me was to put the speaking skills and related issues aside and instead focus on listening and covering my gaps. I did improve even speaking this way noticeably from the point where I had been. And when the time came when I had the opportunity, I joined a group where everyone else spoke French as their native language (or as a language of the country they moved in years ago). Or it is said smaller towns are in general better for this. For those just using you for the "exchange", that is hard. Perhaps when you and them are part of some of the exchange websites, there might be a way to give reviews on them and that might make them realize what they are doing? Whether or not to give up, that is something noone can tell but you. I think it wouldn't solve anything as the French fading away would still sting in your ego. Perhaps a break from French might help? Whatever you do, I wish you good luck and a lot of success either in French or in Spanish or whatever you choose to get out of this. Spanish would be a nice complementary choice, the people are really nice and awesome when it comes to language practice in situ. :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 99 of 160 12 August 2013 at 11:56am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the reply Cavesa, I'm glad to hear that someone understands and it's not just me! It just seems like most young French people have a rather negative attitude towards those who learn their language. And even putting the whole language thing aside, I find them to be quite... closed. I don't think it's just coincidence that I make friends with lots of Spanish and Italian people but very few French, even though there are quite a lot of them in my city and I hear a lot of French when I'm out and about. As I say I have met some exceptions, but they're few and far between.
Anyway you're probably right that it might be best to just focus on the non-spoken aspects for the moment. If opportunities do come along, I'll take them, but there's no point in getting stressed out about trying to find them. It's too easy to get frustrated because I feel that it's holding me back, especially after having "seen the light" with Italian and how much frequent conversation has helped me in that. As tempting as it sometimes is to just give up and start Spanish, I'm not going to do that just yet! I fully agree about it stinging in my ego, and besides I still want to reach a higher level in Italian before starting Spanish. I think that for the rest of this year I'm going to make Italian my big priority and keep French going in the background. And I've more or less decided to start Spanish at the end of the year. You're right about the Spanish people! I've lost count of how many have said things to me like "if you ever want to learn Spanish I'd be very happy to help you", and that's often before even finding out that I have an interest in languages. Whether they'd actually stick to their word is a different question, but still, it's a world apart from the French! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5530 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 100 of 160 12 August 2013 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
Wow, what an appalling bunch of French people you two have run into. I know these people exist—one of my friends recently ran into a clone of this horrible waiter and I've certainly met the ordinary number of jerks and richardheads who are present in any society. But on the whole, I've spoken to so many wonderful francophones: Skype partners, lang-8 correctors, random people at extended family gatherings in France (back when I was barely A2), shopkeepers in Montreal, polyglots from north Africa, B&B owners in Quebec City and even the consulate staff in Boston. Balanced against all that, I've met maybe two people I couldn't stand. I wish I could figure out why my experiences have been so positive, and why other people meet far more than their fair share of jerks. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 101 of 160 13 August 2013 at 11:31am | IP Logged | |||||
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Yeah, I'm not sure, but to me it does seem to be an age thing to some extent, like I mentioned earlier. Almost all of the problems I've had have been with people around 30 or below, and most of the helpful people I've met have been older than that. Of course, a lot of these younger people are good enough at English to get away with refusing to speak French, but even the ones who aren't will often insist anyway. I suppose at least one can't accuse them of being shy about trying to use their target language...
Anyway, back to logging: At the weekend I watched Il postino, Mio fratello è figlio unico, and Un air de famille. Both Italian films were very good but very difficult; I needed subtitles to understand them properly as some of the characters had quite strong regional accents (Campania and Lazio respectively). Il postino had "standard Italian" subs, while Mio fratello only had English ones. Using English subs can feel like cheating, but it's actually quite useful as long as you still focus on the speech. Probably more useful than struggling along with something that's clearly far beyond your level. Un air de famille was full of conversational speech, as you expect from Cédric Klapisch's films, but I didn't find it very captivating so it was hard to stay concentrated. I did an Italian exchange yesterday. As is usual for these things, the person was expecting me to be shit and then was amazed that I was capable of actually having a conversation and even getting the verbs right most of the time. But after that point, people tend to just be relieved that they can speak to me without having to slow down or simplify their language, and it goes well. That brings me back to my complaints about French people and their "condescending remarks and questions" assuming that I'm a beginner. I suppose it's often not a case of being rude, it's probably just that they're simply not used to English speakers being any good at their language. I guess the important difference is that the Italians at least start to take me seriously once they do realise that I'm competent. Italian Super Challenge Films: 84 done, 16 to go. Conversation hours: 100 done. Edited by garyb on 13 August 2013 at 11:37am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| akkadboy Triglot Senior Member France Joined 5406 days ago 264 posts - 497 votes Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh | Message 102 of 160 13 August 2013 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm sorry you had such bad experiences trying to speak French. I hope you'll continue to work on it nvertheless.
I second Cavesa's advice of focusing on non-speaking skills. Are you using Lang-8, I just subscribed and would be happy to help you with your written French (Skype is not an option for me). Edited by akkadboy on 13 August 2013 at 12:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 songlines Pro Member Canada flickr.com/photos/cp Joined 5207 days ago 729 posts - 1056 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French Personal Language Map | Message 103 of 160 13 August 2013 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Sorry to hear about your difficulties finding supportive French speakers, Garyb. - If, during the
warmer months (or at least perhaps not during the depths of winter. Though, being based in Scotland, you may be made of hardier stock than me), there are ever any airline seat sales from your neck of the woods to Quebec, I'd encourage you consider a vacation in la belle province. Even keeping mind what Emk's previously written about language-switching and bilingualism in Montreal, I found French-speakers there (and in Quebec City) friendly and helpful (linguistically speaking). Sometimes ridiculously so; even a simple request for directions to the train station garnered warm praise and encouragement. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5205 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 104 of 160 14 August 2013 at 11:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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akkadboy: Yeah, I keep meaning to write more on Lang-8, but I just never seem to be able to get into the habit of it, and I feel like I never have much to write about that isn't either boring "what I did today" stuff or too personal (although on the latter point, I did keep a "random thoughts" type diary in French for some time, which I've not touched for months...). I should try to at least write something from time to time, as writing is a good way of practising output even if it doesn't interest me as much as speaking.
songlines: A few other people have said similar things to me about Montreal. It sounds like a really interesting city in many ways, and I'm told that it's friendly and that generally if you speak French to a Francophone you'll be answered in French, perhaps due to the whole linguistic pride and identity thing. So it's on my travel "bucket list", although it is a much longer and more expensive journey than the places in Europe that interest me equally. So I don't think I'll go there soon, but maybe sometime in the next few years... I'm also keen to check out the South of France. I've heard it's also quite friendly, and the smaller cities and towns there might be better than Paris for practising French. Maybe next year, although Spain is also high on the list; I suppose if I have time I might be able to do both, they are next to each other after all! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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