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Average Joe/Jose takes a level test | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 25 of 80 23 June 2013 at 11:16am | IP Logged | ||
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As a woman, it's nice to hear "get out of the kitchen" for once :)
But seriously, stop assuming I can't do this. Also note the "if studying" thing. It's an if, not a must. Finally, if you say a C2 speaker should do things like a native speaker would, it should be a realistic native speaker and not an ideal one. @hrhenry have you read the rest of the thread? and how does the debating thing work, then? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4620 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 26 of 80 23 June 2013 at 11:27am | IP Logged | ||
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I think some people think C2 puts you on a par with great writers or gives you the ability to explain advanced
scientific topics. But how many people in the general population of a country are at this level? I think C2 means the ability to use the language without hesitation at normal conversational speed in a lucid manner. You don't necessarily have to know technical jargon, in fact the ability to find instant workarounds and implement them into your speech without delay is in fact a sign of considerable language ability. I don't think you need to use the correct tense all of the time (at least not in oral delivery), as long as your alternative choice does not imply ambiguity or impede understanding. Edited by beano on 23 June 2013 at 11:30am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4907 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 27 of 80 23 June 2013 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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What I find difficult about threads discussing CEFR is the number of people responding without any reference to the CEFR standards. Many thanks to those of you who have referred to the standards.
I have written this elsewhere, but as a teacher in a deprived inner city area in England, I am pretty sure a large proportion of the population in the area would struggle to even achieve a B2. I don't blame the CEFR tests for this, because the CEFR tests seem to be designed around the ability to function in either education or in work. In addition, the CEFR scales describe the ability to understand text, understand speech, produce text and produce speech. Look at the description for B2:
I interact with many native speakers of English who could not even come close to achieving the first or third point of B2. The first point has to do with understanding complex texts, including such things as technical language, and the user's "specialism". Unless these concepts include technical descriptions of getting hammered, these native speakers will not manage. The third point has to do with producing "clear, detailed text". As Cavesa pointed out in the 6th post, even fairly educated natives often have difficulty doing this. And that's just the B2 description! I personally think that the CEFR scale is very good at describing the ability to function in an academic context or in technical work-related contexts, including a strong element of literacy alongside spoken language. However, the "average Joe" doesn't normally use their native language in either context, so they really couldn't be described as being above B2. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 28 of 80 23 June 2013 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Which makes CEFR very elitist.
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| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5224 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 29 of 80 23 June 2013 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | ||
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I know one person (spent a few hours with her last night) who would most likely struggle to get a C1 in her native language as well in the light of what Jeffers just mentioned -- actually, come to think of it, the single CEFR scale looks very well structured regarding the mostly-cognitive abilities it tests: if clarity in production, complexity in comprehension, etc. matter in *language* level assessment (a matter on which I'm ambivalent) at least they're seemingly demanded in a well-graded succession of levels.
I don't agree it makes the CEFR 'elitist' -- as I said, I think its main flaw is putting everything on a single scale, which in turns makes it very easy for most people to misinterpret it. Whose fault is it really, then? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... I've also seen double scales (can't point you to one right now, but I was investigating the requirements to get an UK passport), an 'everyday life' one going up to roughly B2 and a 'professional/technical' one that went all the way up to C2. That's seemingly more realistic than having a single scale, but at the time I thought that was elitist (in the pejorative sense).
A very interesting point I forgot to address. That is something I would expect from any sensible examination system and learners: if you're at level X, then you can pass any exam that's actually at that level, regardless of its concrete form. Following that train of thought, I would take any specific 'exam preparation' as a kind of cheating, for every exam, being a more-or-less random sampling of your target abilities, has inherent flaws that are likely what such 'exam preparations' will expose and help you with. Regarding that, I think the CEF/test system works very well, meaning that if you actually can do what the CEF scale says you should be able to do to be at level X, then you can be fairly sure you'll pass that test without any worries, let alone spending a dime in 'exam preparation'. Empirical, rather than experimental evidence so far, but that's one of the few thumbs-up I'd give to the whole system. Edited by mrwarper on 23 June 2013 at 2:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5007 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 30 of 80 23 June 2013 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree about the train of thought "cheating by preparation". When I came to the CAE exam room (in 2010), vast majority of the people came with their CAE textbooks and spent every break discussing whether or not the exam exercise was similar to the exercise 5 on page 16, whether the often used words they had been told to learn were really there and how to write the essay specifically for the exam. It was understandable but quite strange. I was one of the very few people who had not prepared themselves in this manner. And the same applies to DELF B2. I came like Serpent and barely passed. Next time, I will surely buy the exam preparation books and do it like others because the exam requires it.
The DELE C2 spoken part seems reasonable. But the DELF B2 was desribed similarily despite being very different. In the end, I was to have a monologue about the topic for majority of the time (like 10-12 minutes) and was asked only two or three questions in the end. And I can tell I would have had trouble doing this in Czech as well because the topic just wasn't worth giving such a lecture on. Had they tested my ability to converse and discuss the article, that would make sense. Not this. The same was the writing assignment. I would have had trouble to write 250 words demanding refund for a broken DVD even in Czech. The assignment had substance for about 50-100 words, how was I to produce 250 without turning it into blabbering? How was I to "produce clear, detailed text and explain a viewpoint on the issue giving avantages and disadvantages of various options" about that? 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 31 of 80 23 June 2013 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | ||
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A rightly pointed out by @jeffers, many people discuss the CEFR without referring to the actual standards. I don't
know how many times it has to be said that the CEFR system was not designed to assess in any way or form the linguistic abilities of native speakers. It was designed for a very specific purpose. Whether native speakers can pass these tests is irrelevant or idle speculation. I should also point out that since the CEFR is a formal exam system, preparation is highly recommended. Who would not prepare for an exam, especially since it costs a fair amount of money and may be important for one's academic or professional life? The idea that one should be able to just walk in off the street and pass the test is ludicrous and a recipe for guaranteed failure. Enough said about that. The other point I want to make is that one fundamental idea behind the CEFR system is that it does not purport to test your knowledge of the language but your ability to use the language for certain tasks. This is the idea of these "can do" statements. The task at hand is: Can you summarize, present and discuss a complex text? It's not, "Can you conjugate the imperfect subjunctive of the verb poner in Spanish?" If you "can do" without using the perfect subjunctive, that's fine. Where one can quibble legitimately is how well these tests actually measure what they attempt to measure. For example, if you are expected to talk for 10 minutes and you can only do 5 minutes, one could perhaps say that 5 minutes is really all that is needed. Should you have to write 250 words if 50 words will do in your opinion? This is open for debate. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 32 of 80 23 June 2013 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | ||
If an average Joe moves to a different country, why should he suddenly become better than an average Juan? 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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