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Inhaling Belgium | ||
Tags: Belgium | Super Challenge | Living abroad | Dutch | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 9 of 116 05 May 2013 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Soft g/ch predominate throughout all of Belgium and the Southern Netherlands (Brabant and Limburg, Zealand has different rules). I have no experience with the Ghent dialect because I have never been to that city, but yes, the g/ch is one of the giveaways about your dialect. I'm an exception because I pronounce my g/ch much softer than most locals here. Probably an influence from my parents, although I can pronounce the rough uvular one if I have to (and I use that one in Hebrew for example).
Francophone words in Dutch are often words denoting concepts for the rich. Most Dutch loanwords from French are words you would use in a posher or formal situation (either because they're also from Latin or because we use them for formal objects). In Belgium this was problematic because of the following reason: in the times of French dominance, the Walloons were the rich people. Flemish people hated the rich Walloons and would rather just speak Flemish, whereas the Dutch aristocracy held no such antipathies and Frenchified their Dutch (leading to the influx of French words in our language). The use of French words in Dutch often has a very posh connotation, or an elitist one. This is why in theatres, we hang our coats in the garderobe. We may host a matinée. But that is something only rich people do. Dutch (and Belgian) culinary traditions have been strongly influenced by that of the French (often good restaurants here serve French-influenced cuisine), and many culinary terminology is borrowed from French. Doing something "au bain-marie" is known to every Dutch culinary expert, and they also know how to make a gratin!!! (gratin is pronounced with the nasal vowel in Dutch by the way).
Correct, but the influence is found in many commonplace objects, not in formal terminology (vork - ferchet) style differences. These are borrowed through common usage from French and were not looked down upon because they were good usable everyday words. This is why we believe the Flemish use more Francophone words - they would be used in an everyday situation, whereas we would use them in a different social context or in formal writing. Also, often even in Dutch, Germanic and Romance vocabulary contrast in their register. Germanic is the common element, whereas a French or Latin word would be considered its formal equivalent. Occasionally they exist side by side, or one of the two has a particular connotation. Legaal/wettelijk, rechtmatig/juridisch, eigenschap/karakteristiek, verbetering/correctie, etc. Edited by tarvos on 06 May 2013 at 11:53am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Suzie Diglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4230 days ago 155 posts - 226 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Dutch | Message 10 of 116 09 May 2013 at 9:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Not having been so active neither here nor with my French (I managed my daily vocabulary lessons, not more) in the past days, I am now happily returning. Was quite busy with work, completing a home assignment for a university course, meeting friends, experimenting on how to paint a wooden ceiling...But today is the day to keep up in the 6WC race....
Tarvos, I can't thank you enough for this very interesting answer and explanation. I've spent the past days reflecting on the situation of francophone/romanic words in German. I think with regard to words of Latin origin, it is really the same as in Dutch - they entered the language via science and education. Also in German you'll often find two expressions for the same meaning, with the romanic form being the more formal one. French cooking vocabulary - I'd say it's a bit less than in Dutch. We also have "gratins", but would never prepare something "au bain-marie", but rather "im Wasserbad". In total, I think there was a time when French had great influence on the German language, where speaking French was regarded extremely chic, and the ones being able to do so very educated. A really good example can be seen in the German classic novel "Die Buddenbrooks" by Thomas Mann. During the first pages, the family members repeatedly talk to each other in French, just to show off. The novel was written in 1901; at this time, the author could expect any potential reader to be able to understand these phrases. This has changed completely, with English now having taken over the role of French in German. Both French language and and also their culture have lost their influence completely. And in some cases, this results in quite some funny developments.... In German, there is the term "realisieren", with the original meaning "to make something real", like "réaliser" in French. But Germans would rather say "verwirklichen" instead. Nowadays, with nearly everyone speaking English, people would use "realisieren" again, but with the meaning as implied by the English "realise". So the word itself has not changed, but its meaning...I just checked, the new meaning has already found it's way into our "Duden", the "bible" of German. So, my plan for today is to continue with doing vocabulary, watching at least one episode of "Grey's Anatomy", while also trying to re-install my sink and cleaning the kitchen, now that my kitchen ceiling is finally evenly whitened... 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Suzie Diglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4230 days ago 155 posts - 226 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Dutch | Message 11 of 116 11 May 2013 at 11:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Learning new words....
Having spent quite some time with refreshing and boosting my vocabulary now, I would like to share my experiences. I am currently using three different systems, for some weird reasons. But I see that each has its advantages and disadvantages, and I have not yet really found the best one ever... 1) About half a year ago, during my last "Oh-let's-learn-some-French" flash, I purchased a German language learning software, "Sprachenlernen24". While I liked the general concept, the software has multiple downsides and is quite error-prone, therefore I would not recommend anyone to buy this one. However, I am still using it as a mere vocabulary trainer (well, none of the other functions work well in this software, so either I'll learn the vocabulary or nothing), because I spent incredible 80 € on it, and it contains 3900 words for which I do not need to prepare any flash cards on my own. There's audio included, which serves me well, and there are also pictures to support the meaning of the word. Unfortunately, in some cases they are misleading as well. Vocabulary is trained via SRS, however, for me the intervals (20 days in total, with 6 repetitions inbetween) are a bit too short to feel comfortable that the word really found its place in my long-term memory. I am currently rushing through this course to get rid of it as quickly as possible, and to forget this unpleasant purchase. 2) Some months ago, I found this nice website called Memrise. Also Memrise bases on SRS. Not everyone loves the playing aspect - I, however, do so. I like it quite a lot, though for me, its major disadvantage is that the word lists are not always that reliable. And if the author does not bother to correct it, you cannot overcome the wrong words. And learning whole phrases turned out to be quite complex, as you only have little time to note down the answer, and you should be a quick writer if to complete your phrases. I don't like to be rushed, so for me, it's fine for learning new words, but not for memorising whole phrases. The intervals for spaced repetitions suit me well - I don't feel that anything is lost. I am currently starting to create my own courses on Memrise, based on the vocabulary I am finding in my "Lernkrimi". 3) Since I was a schoolkid, I have been using physical flash cards for everything I have learnt so far. My father even constructed a wooden box with 5 spaces for me, and I love this one. Some of my French flash cards have reached the age of 20 (I still need to repeat them, though). I can't imagine that any computer software will last that long. But on the other hand - with now hopefully reaching advanced fluency during my stay in Belgium, I am sincerely hoping not to need the flash cards anymore in another 20 years... I also like that this system is not computer-related, as I love to learn in the garden, where my monitor is not of great use. And I like that this is my personal tailor-made Suzie-system, which I can adapt and update whenever I feel like. Currently I am repeating all known words after 1 week, 20 days, 1 month, 3 months, 1 year, 3 years, (10 years). (The 10 years are in brackets only, as I have not yet had the pleasure to actually do this interval yet. As mentioned above, I sincerely hope that before I reach that 10y interval, I will be fluent in French anyway.) The major downside of this system...well...are the thousands of flash cards to keep in order. I am currently moving to a greater box to cope with them. When it comes to this, I prefer the neatness of digital flash cards... Using now Memrise for new words, I will keep the flash card system for phrases. I also tested Anki a couple of days ago. I like the flexibility of the system. However, I decided to keep my physical flash cards because of the aspect of being able to study outside (and to keep my beloved wooden box), and I am also prefering Memrise because of the possibility to share my word list with others. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Suzie Diglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4230 days ago 155 posts - 226 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Dutch | Message 12 of 116 12 May 2013 at 9:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I can't believe how much words I've memorised in the past two weeks! It seems to be incredibly easy this time. I suspect that most of those words had been hidden deeply in my memory, never been memorised officially, but just passively absorbed during my long career of doing French at A2/B1 level. No wonder, as I have gone through a couple of text books and children's literature, let alone any "unintentional exposure" during my stay at Geneva. It is good to see there are some hidden resources I can build on. There is still so much to learn!
So, today....I am now about to put the dog into the car and to leave for a road trip to my new home, Wallonia, for sightseeing. I want to grab some impressions before finally choosing my apartment/house in three weeks. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5848 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 13 of 116 12 May 2013 at 10:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Hi Suzie! This is a very interesting log here! I find Belgium an interesting country because all three of my languages are spoken: German, Dutch and French. Unfortuantly, I don't have money to visit Belgium, but in the 1980's I visited the town of Deinze and the city of Antwerpen in Flanders. In Liège I spent some hours and there I had the chance to buy my French vegetarian cookbook.
Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 14 of 116 12 May 2013 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If you pass through Waterloo, don't miss the Butte du Lion. For the record. Waterloo (next to Brussels and Antwerp) is where I spent most of my time in Belgium. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Suzie Diglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4230 days ago 155 posts - 226 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Dutch | Message 15 of 116 20 May 2013 at 7:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No. The trip didn't take that long....it's just that the past week has been quite busy. On Wednesday, I'll have my last official working day at my present company, and I have spent many nights and this whole weekend to complete some pending projects.
I didn't do any French at all since last Sunday - not only because of the work.... On the motorway to the Belgian border, I was listening to my Berlitz audio training material. There was a telephone dialogue, with one of the speakers portrayed by nothing else than this ancient noise that you got when pressing the rewind button of a cassette player. Do you remember? (Well, this very second I feel very old, realising that CD players exist since the late 80s, and that a great number of forum members doesn't have any clue what I am talking about....) Well, those of you who remember: I finally ended up trying to repeat that high-pitching sound, instead of repeating the French text.... If you start doing this, then you know you've lost focus.... (But actually I did great in mimicking that noise...) Well, the trip to Belgium was great. I now know the word "lilas", there were plenty of them, nice town centres, beautiful countryside...Belgium, I'm coming!
Hi Tarvos, I indeed crossed Waterloo. Unfortunately, I ran out of time and couldnt't leave the car, but I've heard its a lovely town.
Hi Fasulye! I feel the same about Belgium, which was a reason to choose this fascinating country to live in. It's so great - just driving a few minutes, and then..still the same country, yet a different language.... Now, re-start in French! After the business-related stuff is now over, I can start with full energy today...well, tomorrow....better on Thursday:-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Suzie Diglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 4230 days ago 155 posts - 226 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Dutch | Message 16 of 116 22 May 2013 at 6:15am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My very last working day at my present company....
It's a Japanese one, and unfortunately, I never bothered to learn more than, let's say 20-50 words in that language, as fascinating as it is. I just never found the time. Beside quite a time-consuming job I gave utmost priority to my family, I have been studying a post-graduate science programme to get the job of my dreams, and with regard to languages....I had my "learn all languages of the world" phase as a school kid, before realising that I would rather prefer to be fluent in some than getting the rough idea of many. So, the little time I had, I always spent on French, English and Dutch. I just realised very, very recently, that speaking Japanese would give me some professional advantage in, let's say, 10-15 years from now. I would love to be self-employed then, facing globalisation myself as I would have to compete with a lot of e.g. Indian scientists who are doing the same very good job. I would have to offer more than them to ensure my income. And I realised that my intense knowledge of Japanese working culture could serve me well in that respect. In the past years, I observed that during daily routine, both non-Japanese and Japanese business partners felt some discomfort to work with each other - culture-wise and language-wise. Speaking some Japanese would strengthen that skill of mine. It hit me! Believe it or not - after spending more than five years in an immersion situation where I could have learnt so easily Japanese; just during the very last working days, I realise that and decide to learn Japanese....how crazy... This is why I am writing this now. I'll still have some contact to some friends and colleagues. Noone knows whether we'll be "best friends forever". But as long as we bother to keep contact, I should take advantage of that. My dream was to reach advanced fluency in French and Dutch first, and then to start to awake my sleeping Italian, or to learn Finnish. I somehow had accepted that Japanese is only a "nice-to-have", of little use for daily live, and that I would most probably never find the time to attempt it. But now I am realising that I really should not only learn Japanese, but start this project as quickly as possible. Great. I'll finish the great 6 week challenge in French first, before trying to give all my time-consuming goals (languages, profession, health, finances) a structure and priority setting, seeing what is feasible, and how would be the most structured way to achieve this. I always want everything. A proper structure has been helping me to find some sleep in the night, otherwise I would have gone crazy by now, overwhelmed by my unrealistic expectations. So, more on the Japanese trail after I've returned to the top five in the 6WC for French... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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