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Nynorsk: "doke" i staden for "dere/de" | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Skandinavisk & Nordisk |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5334 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 17 of 26 28 October 2013 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If you had read my post you would have seen that this is not the case in Norwegian. At least not in my dialect. In colloquial speech 'n could (and can) be used - I use it myself in more sloppy moments, but han/Hun was only officially allowed a few decades ago. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6582 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 18 of 26 28 October 2013 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Right, I don't doubt that. In Swedish, in fact, it's still not "officially allowed", and I doubt it will be anytime soon. My point is that in Swedish (and I suspect it's the same case in Norwegian), the "Jag såg han" form is a surviving version of an older form, which has not been completely replaced by the newer form. I suspect that this is how it happened in Norwegian (I apologise in advance that I'm making a fool out of myself by trying to write Nynorsk, but hopefully you get my point): * Old Norwegian: "eg ser han" * Recent Norwegian: "eg ser honom" (considered correct) / "eg ser han" (considered incorrect) * Current Norwegian: Both considered correct So when I'm talking about "jag såg han" being considered correct, I'm not talking about decades but centuries ago, before "honom" was even invented. At that time, I don't think there was any real separation between Norwegian dialects and Swedish ones, which is why I believe it was the same in both languages. I may be wrong, but I hope I've at least clarified my statement. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5453 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 19 of 26 28 October 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As far as I know, Old Norse distinguished between subject and object pronouns (and between accusative and
dative). Over time, there has been a simplification of the system, with different results in different dialects. Traditional Bokmål and Riksmål use "han" as subject pronoun and "ham" as object pronoun: Jeg ser ham. However, "han" has been allowed as object pronoun in official Bokmål since 1938: Jeg ser han. It has been an official form for 75 years, and people are still complaining about recent changes! "Han" as object pronoun is widespread in Norwegian. It is common in dialects all over the country, and in Nynorsk "han" is a lot more common than "hanom". Quite frankly I don't see the problem with "han" as an object pronoun in Norwegian. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4844 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 20 of 26 28 October 2013 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, Old Norse had a full set of four different cases for personal pronouns (nominative, accusative, dative, genitive), which still exists in Icelandic and Faroese. The forms for "he/him" were hann (N), hann (A), honum (D), hans (G), while "she/her" was hon (N), hana (A), henni (D), hennar (G). You can see how this relates to the forms of the personal pronouns in the modern Scandinavian languages. Edited by Josquin on 28 October 2013 at 10:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5334 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 21 of 26 29 October 2013 at 6:59am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Which is why I used it as an example for a change which I respected and found unproblematic :-) Nevertheless the form was considered wrong by all the adults surrounding me as late as in the 60ies and 70ies, and to this day it is avoided by many. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 29 October 2013 at 7:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4668 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 22 of 26 29 October 2013 at 2:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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HE and
SHE: Bm: han (object: han or ham) hun (object: henne) Ny: han (object: han) ho (object: ho or henne) I guess the objects HENNE in Nynorsk and HAN in Bokmål are results of the samnorsk policy of yesteryear. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| stifa Triglot Senior Member Norway lang-8.com/448715 Joined 4873 days ago 629 posts - 813 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, EnglishC2, German Studies: Japanese, Spanish | Message 23 of 26 29 October 2013 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think that "han" as object form is rather an "error" that became so common that it
turned into an alternative "correct" form. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6909 days ago 4250 posts - 5711 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 26 29 October 2013 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, you have the Old Norse examples which Josquin posted. Those show that the nominative and accusative forms 'hann' are identical (same in older Swedish, as Ari pointed out). I don't know why the dative form became the only correct "object" form.
German still has the -n/-m distinction (ihn/ihm, einen/einem, den/dem). Does anyone have access to an Old English grammar? I mean, it's "the same" -m in him, honom, ham etc. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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