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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| shapd Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6146 days ago 126 posts - 208 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Italian, Spanish, Latin, Modern Hebrew, French, Russian | Message 457 of 489 07 February 2008 at 6:42am | IP Logged | |||||
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I am not surprised Zhuangzi couldn't understand the abstract of the Science Direct article. It is incomprehensible and misleading. I have looked at the original paper and it is nothing to do wirh chunking. The problem has been to account for the fact that children can rapidly and efficiently work out what words are referring to. The classic situation is referred to in the introduction to the paper. A stranger hears a native say "gavagai" and point to a scene. Does gavagai refer to a rabbit, the grass, a tree, or the rabbit's ears?
What the researchers claim is that children (12 to 14 months old) can work out what is going on if they see the same information in many contexts. For example, they show them two pictures simultaneously eg ball and bat and repeat the words BALL and BAT at the same time, without saying which is which. (The actual experiment was done with nonsense words and shapes) They do the same for ball and dog and the words BALL and DOG. And then ball and cat or bat and dog. After a certain number of these combinations, the children work out that ball is called BALL and bat is called BAT without ever being taught it. The claim is that children use the probability of the word appearing at the same time as the object over many exposures to associate the word with the object. This could have relevance to L-R and massive input by showing that listeners can work out the meaning of words from context IF THEY ARE GIVEN ENOUGH VARIED CONTEXT. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7025 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 458 of 489 07 February 2008 at 9:35am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks for the explanation. I tried Listening to War and Peace and reading in English and just did not enjoy it, but continued listening and reading in Russian which is enjoyable since it helps my reading. Granted I am not a beginner in Russian so this is not a fair test of this approach.
I would like to try it from scratch with Czech. Anyone know of how to get a Czech audio book of a novel or something that I could easily buy in English? Note: Ideally something where an e-text is available so that I could eventually go in and save words and phrases. Edited by Zhuangzi on 07 February 2008 at 9:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6854 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 459 of 489 07 February 2008 at 10:00am | IP Logged | |||||
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I was wondering about Czech myself last night, although that also wouldn't be a fair test, since I'm not really a beginner.
I found this page: http://www.audioknihy.eu/store/default.asp?lngDepartmentID=2 2 This is the Czech novels page. Charlotte's Web has a particular appeal to me. In the future, I would like to try this approach to a language I've never learned before. I think, however, that I would grow frustrated with reading English while hearing the words in a different language, but perhaps, over time, my mind would adapt? It seems like an interesting test of the human spirit. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| vanityx3 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6458 days ago 331 posts - 326 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 460 of 489 07 February 2008 at 10:12am | IP Logged | |||||
Hello Zhuangzi, Have you thought that maybe the reason you didn't enjoy L-R with War and Peace was because you wanted to have the sense of accomplishment of reading War and Peace in original Russian (even if it was on a subconcious level) Take my french studies, I've tried L-R with Le Rêve by Zola, and also Un coeur simple by Flaubert, and I enjoyed the method and found it to help my listening skills quite a lot and also to get me to think in French more. But I would never want to L-R with Madame Bovary or a Balzac classic because I want to expierience the sense of accomplishment that comes with reading such books in their original language with only a basic idea of the book in my native language. Perhaps you feel the same way about reading War and Peace, if I studied Russian, I would want to read Dostoevsky in original Russian with no parallel translation for a sense of accomplishment. But I would choose a lesser known author, that was also talented to L-R with. I hope this makes sense. I think it comes down to book selection and perhaps pretige of the author when choosing a book to L-R with. At least this is how I choose my books. Edited by vanityx3 on 07 February 2008 at 10:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7025 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 461 of 489 07 February 2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged | |||||
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I want to keep an open mind. The problem I see is that a great deal of input is required. That means that you have to stay with it for a long time, hours at a time. The idea of listening to what is at first indiscriminate noise while reading something that may or may not be of interest is a problem.
If it is at least an attractive book, originally written in that language, I think the motivation would be greater. I.e. War and Peace in Russian. But I think I would be motivated to see what the sounds look like written down in that language, and pretty soon I would want to read in the language. This is particularly the case with online dictionaries and the like available, not to mention LingQ into which I can import any electronic text. The great attraction of this system is that you do not need to be in front of a computer and can just sit in a comfortable chair and do it. But for how long? I agree the choice of books is important. But I will have to try both a Czech translation of a book that exists in a language I know, and a Czech book in translation. Something by Kundera or else the Good Soldier Zweig or whatever it was called...any suggestions? I am going out the door now but will check out the website for Czech audio books. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6854 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 462 of 489 07 February 2008 at 11:10am | IP Logged | |||||
The Good Soldier Švejk. Schweik? Good call. I found it online in English at: http://www.zenny.com/svejk/ In Czech. I couldn't find it in audio, however, at least quickly. Hodně štěstí! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7025 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 463 of 489 07 February 2008 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks Cait, Now all I need is the audio and a good online bilingual Czech dictionary. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ChristopherB Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 6313 days ago 851 posts - 1074 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English*, German, French | Message 464 of 489 07 February 2008 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Here's what appears to be a pretty comprehensive dictionary:
http://www.slovnik.cz/ (I say comprehensive only after having successfully checked it for such words as 'obfuscate', 'destitute' and 'cavort', which lesser dictionaries often don't have.) Edited by Fränzi on 07 February 2008 at 6:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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