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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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Alkeides
Senior Member
Bhutan
Joined 4308 days ago

636 posts - 644 votes 

 
 Message 481 of 489
10 February 2008 at 9:22am | IP Logged 
OK thanks. The difficult part is finding literal translations, but at least English grammar is not so different from French; in English subtitles of anime, the whole sentence order is often flipped backwards.
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atamagaii
Senior Member
Anguilla
Joined 4366 days ago

181 posts - 195 votes 
Speaks: Apache*

 
 Message 482 of 489
10 February 2008 at 9:37am | IP Logged 
For French-English L-R find some relatively easy texts (L'├ętranger by Camus is quite easy linguistically but difficult as literature for untrained minds) and make them parallel, side by side, small matching chunks, vertical columns on one page, use e-texts and a pop-up dictionary.
If you're unable to prepare such parallel texts, ask somebody who can do it. The rule is simple: GIVE and you will GET.

Strange how lazy people are. And unwilling to cooperate. I did not ask anybody for advice, I did everything myself.

Do not take anything for granted.

Edited by atamagaii on 10 February 2008 at 9:44am

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Alkeides
Senior Member
Bhutan
Joined 4308 days ago

636 posts - 644 votes 

 
 Message 483 of 489
10 February 2008 at 9:44am | IP Logged 
atamagaii wrote:

L-R is not for tinkering polygots playing with the idea of becoming a Ziad Fazah and changing their language every other day. It's meant for literature lovers. If you love what you're doing, you never get tired nor bored, you want more and more of it.

I think one can aspire to be a polyglot in order to read the literature of many different languages? :)

Anyway, thanks for the advice, maybe I shall just try Le petit prince first, I am actually just still on step 2 of L-Rinng L'Etranger currently.

edit

should have posted this separately


Edited by amphises on 10 February 2008 at 10:06am

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Alkeides
Senior Member
Bhutan
Joined 4308 days ago

636 posts - 644 votes 

 
 Message 484 of 489
10 February 2008 at 10:06am | IP Logged 

I'm trying not to take anything for granted ^_^, I once heard a milionaire say the best way to find opportunities is to never take anything for granted. I just want(ed) some advice to clarify my doubts. I don't need anyone to prepare parallel texts for me, though if they are available already, it'd be helpful.

BTW, sorry if this is a bother again, but can you clarify the use of a reference grammar? Should I have a brief glance through it first?
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Guests
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 Message 485 of 489
10 February 2008 at 11:36am | IP Logged 
My new nick

I usually read a grammar or two (phonetics, morphology, syntax) to get an idea what to expect. I make my own tables, too and have them at hand for quick reference.

If languages are closely related, it is not necessary.

radosne nic
bez granic
poezJA


Good luck, amphises.

Edited by poezJA on 10 February 2008 at 12:27pm

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pentatonic
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5407 days ago

221 posts - 245 votes 

 
 Message 486 of 489
10 February 2008 at 12:45pm | IP Logged 
atamagaii wrote:
Strange how lazy people are. And unwilling to cooperate. I did not ask anybody for advice, I did everything myself.

I don't think you're a very good judge of human nature. Everybody wants something for nothing. Sad maybe, but not strange.

But perhaps your judgment is not so bad because that's the whole appeal of your LR system that you promote incessantly on this board, right? Take a book or two, get some audio, and you've learned a language. Step right up my friends... one week and it can be yours!

atamagaii wrote:
Do not take anything for granted.


That's the mistake people have made here. They take for granted that person is honest. I don't believe you learned any languages with the LR system. I don't believe anyone has.

The brain deals wonderfully with abstract information, but it can't get something from nothing. How can listening to gibberish while reading your native language bring any clarity to the gibberish? How would you even be able to match which foreign sentence goes with which in your native language? How would you know if you're in the right place in the text? And all this at the speed of the reader? The only way would be if you already knew some of the language or a language you know is closely related, and that's not what you claim. And even then, it would have to be the most inefficient way possible, not to mention unbearably frustrating.

I've looked at some of the links you've provided and they were all parallel texts. None had any audio at all. That's not even your system, and certainly nothing new.

So what's up with this thread that never ends? Just a big joke to you? You get a little chuckle from deceiving the gullible, do you?
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Guests
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 Message 487 of 489
10 February 2008 at 1:20pm | IP Logged 
pentatonic wrote:
   You get a little chuckle from deceiving the gullible, do you?


Not a little chuckle, gargantuan laugh. I always like a practical joke or two. You must admit it's not so bad.

As to the audio - it's easy to get. Parallel texts are scarce.

As to honesty - I'm honestly dishonest.

As to never ending story - I asked the admin to close it LONG AGO and even to delete it. So do not blame me.

Edited by poezJA on 10 February 2008 at 1:27pm



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 4599 days ago

4474 posts - 6724 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 488 of 489
10 February 2008 at 1:26pm | IP Logged 
pentatonic wrote:
   
That's the mistake people have made here. They take for granted that person is honest. I don't believe you learned any languages with the LR system. I don't believe anyone has.


I haven't learned any whole languages with L-R; but I have learned a significant amount of 4 in it, having spent about 3 hours each on Dutch and German L-R, about 10 on Spanish, and a similar number on Polish.

I've done a bit over an hour and a half of Polish L-R today, and all of my previous study has either been listening to Polish by itself, phonetic study, and about 2 hours reading grammars. I've learned a -lot- of words in this hour and a half; my Polish vocabulary is significantly larger than my Persian vocabulary, and I've spent many more hours on the Persian.

On the other hand, MarcoDiAngelo learned a significant amount of Russian via Listening-Reading.

pentatonic wrote:

The brain deals wonderfully with abstract information, but it can't get something from nothing. How can listening to gibberish while reading your native language bring any clarity to the gibberish? ... And even then, it would have to be the most inefficient way possible, not to mention unbearably frustrating.


It's not something for nothing. Human languages are structured, not gibberish. It is possible to pick out some of this structure even just listening to a remote language on the radio - I've done so, with Japanese, without using any texts (in any language), and to a lesser degree with some other languages. This is indeed extremely slow.

With a parallel text that corresponds to the audio, though, it could hardly be farther from gibberish. It is the -fastest- way to gain passive ability in a language that I am aware of (the fastest I know of for active limited use is Michel Thomas, for what it's worth). I can't speak for active skills, as I have not yet tried L-R to the extent that I have tried steps 4 and 5 of the initial post, to activate things, beyond that, with my 10 hours of Listen-Read Spanish (a language I understood, due to Italian, but had never previously studied), I've been able to write some short forum posts here without undue effort.

pentatonic wrote:

How would you even be able to match which foreign sentence goes with which in your native language? How would you know if you're in the right place in the text? And all this at the speed of the reader? The only way would be if you already knew some of the language or a language you know is closely related, and that's not what you claim.


Matching sentences is fairly easy, with good translations, and especially when the sentences are short and there are a lot of cognates. This happens no matter how distinct the languages are, because of proper nouns. I've found staying in the right place in the text to be an extremely minor problem, even with relatively distant languages (like Polish) and relatively hard texts (like "The Master and Margarita").

Place names and character names provide enough of a toehold to provide the benefit that already knowing part of the language would. The more you understand, the easier it is to pick up the rest, but it's quite doable even from nothing -- and even with two literary translations, rather than the word-for-word translations atamagaii recommends beginning with for the first 3 hours or so, to deal with exactly this problem.


Edited by Volte on 10 February 2008 at 1:28pm



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