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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4430 days ago

540 posts - 631 votes 
Speaks: Latin*

 
 Message 33 of 489
04 July 2007 at 5:17am | IP Logged 
Lots of material that is loosely following the above method is found at:

http://english.franklang.ru/

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4747 days ago

9084 posts - 16476 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 34 of 489
04 July 2007 at 6:05am | IP Logged 
Congratulations, siomotteikuru, it is not often that I have to think a post over for several days before I have considered all its implications.

My first thought was: this looks like the way I have used the GLOSS-lessons, - there you have the original text, a translation plus an aural version all in one, though with shorter, non-literary texts.

My next thought was: at which point in my own learning process would your method be most effective. I came to the result that I would want to know the basics of the language - some morphology, a minimal vocabulary plus knowledge about the phonematics of the language - before I started listening/reading. One reason for this is that it is timeconsuming and difficult to find your way round a written text unless you already have some training in reading that language, - this is especially true if you lose your place in the text and had to find it quickly again. With texts in another alphabet than your native one this is even more important.

So I would think that your method gives the best results from somewhere round the level of a good beginner or intermediate fluency up to basic fluency.

Then there is the question of using large (and generally difficult) texts. If you are to benefit from your reading of the translation I suppose you have to subdivide it into short sections of maybe a paragraph or two up to half a page at a time, - in your own words: "You only remember well what you understand and what you feel is "yours" psychologically ". I would lose that feeling for the first page of Anna Karenina if I had to read the whole book first. When you are advanced enough to skip the initial reading of the translation this of course doesn't apply any longer, and you can survive longer sections in one go.

As you mention it is important to use texts that are interesting because of their content. For me that would not necessarily be literary texts,- there are a great number of books about science in reasonably good translations. Unfortunately you won't get any actor to read aloud a book about nuclear physics or zoology, - the availability of audiobooks is the main advantage I see in using the usual heap of literary masterworks.

The quality of the translations is also all-important. They have to be as literal as possible, otherwise they will just be one more source of confusion. Ideally they should be so literal that they don't even conform to the rules of the language they are written in (however I see that siomotteikuru have another opinion on that). But such translations are in practice impossible to find, and you may have to accept translations that are more concerned with being good literature in their own right than telling you exactly what is in the original.

I use one listening technique that is diametrally opposite to listening-reading, namely listening 'like a bloodhound follows a trail'. The main idea here is that you should listen without trying to translate or even understand, just follow (and subdividing) the stream of sounds and if you know enough words and grammar the meaning will pop up in your head just like when you listen to a language that you know well - you just need a better source and more concentration. However this can only done with success at a rather advanced stage, so listening with an exact transcript in your hand is by a wide margin the best alternative until then. You need to find aural sources with exact transcripts, but the use of audiobooks is of course the logical solution to that problem. No problem there, - the problem is to find usable translations into a language you know well.

All in all I would say that your method is attractive and probably effective, and I'm going to think seriously about what I can use from it.


Edited by Iversen on 04 July 2007 at 6:55am

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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4403 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 35 of 489
05 July 2007 at 10:07am | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru,

A very interesting method! If you have more information or experiences to share while using the method to learn languages, I would like to hear them!

Edit: Question. How often do you suggest someone using this method completes Step 3? (Reading the translation while listening to the text). You stated you L-R'd Kafka in German about 4 times in 4 days (10h/day). Would you recommend L-Ring the same book daily until it is completely internalized, or should the repetitions be spaced over days/weeks?

Edited by FSI on 05 July 2007 at 11:23am

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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4405 days ago

102 posts - 240 votes 

 
 Message 36 of 489
08 July 2007 at 11:34am | IP Logged 
It might seem a little bit off topic, but in fact it isn't.

I've just read about Daniel Tammet, the guy who learned Icelandic in a week.
To tell you the truth, I couldn't stop laughing. ANYONE CAN DO IT. Even me, and I am not an autistic savant, nor am I a genious (my IQ is 106, 60% of people).

As I wrote above it's all about THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF EXPOSURE IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
And enjoying the process, of course.

Happy-go-lucky Miss Hopper
likes to be done good and proper

Edited by siomotteikiru on 08 July 2007 at 11:35am

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Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 4483 days ago

4475 posts - 6725 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 37 of 489
08 July 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
It might seem a little bit off topic, but in fact it isn't.

I've just read about Daniel Tammet, the guy who learned Icelandic in a week.
To tell you the truth, I couldn't stop laughing. ANYONE CAN DO IT. Even me, and I am not an autistic savant, nor am I a genious (my IQ is 106, 60% of people).

As I wrote above it's all about THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF EXPOSURE IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
And enjoying the process, of course.


Sure - I've heard of quite a few people who can do so. That said, I'd argue that the majority of people -do not- know how to do this.

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furyou_gaijin
Senior Member
Japan
Joined 4430 days ago

540 posts - 631 votes 
Speaks: Latin*

 
 Message 38 of 489
08 July 2007 at 6:05pm | IP Logged 
Remembered another one: this one is a magnificent source for Japanese
texts.

http://eloise.cocolog-nifty.com/rodoku/
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tmesis
Senior Member
Mayotte
Joined 4692 days ago

154 posts - 146 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 39 of 489
08 July 2007 at 6:37pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru,

You mentioned that it took you about 40 hours of using your L-R method to get generally comfortable in German. For a language not in the Indo-European family -- Japanese in your case -- how much time have you had to expend so far, and how comfortable do you feel in it?
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blindsheep
Triglot
Senior Member
Spain
Joined 4404 days ago

503 posts - 507 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish
Studies: German

 
 Message 40 of 489
09 July 2007 at 11:43am | IP Logged 
I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to shadow parts of the text I'm reading, but I don't exactly understand the process.

Can someone explain to me exactly what shadowing is... is it imitating at the exact same time as you here it (which requires great timing) or is it saying a moment after?

Thanks alot!


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