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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4992 days ago

2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 137 of 489
22 July 2007 at 10:57pm | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
As to 'listening-reading", it's a SYSTEM. ... You cannot struggle with it. IF you don't love it, you'd better stop.


Your system doesn't seem so fragile as to be a take it or leave it situation. On the contrary, it's almost beyond any doubt that if one finds it impossible to learn a new language from scratch with it, one can study the fundamentals in a more conventional way and use it very fruitfully for intermediate-level practice. (It will take longer then, of course.)

Where it does seem to be a take it or leave it, is with regard to its most fundamental component - listening in the target language while reading in the base language.

That's the most unusual aspect of it, and if one doesn't want to do it that way, one is simply not using the method at all, but is just doing something else with audiobooks.

The rest of the approach one should be able to experiment with and change at will without compromising its core. It could be that your sequence is the best one, but you never know - there is no way this won't continue to be discussed, and it has nothing to do with loving or not loving the system.

siomotteikiru wrote:
And read a lot of GOOD literature ...


It doesn't seem to be easy to find unabridged audiobooks for the works one would really want to read. In many cases they don't exist, but there is also a circular problem in that one's chances of finding things on the web increase when one can already read in the target language. Even then, it doesn't seem all that easy.


Edited by frenkeld on 23 July 2007 at 3:29am

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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5077 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 138 of 489
22 July 2007 at 11:33pm | IP Logged 
It is the idea of listening to the new language while reading in a familiar language that is most interesting. I myself have done a variety of experiments along these lines. Reading in L1 while listening in L2 and vice versa. The problem is vocabulary.

I have also tried Assimil and bilingual books. Assimil does not get you very far, and bi-lingual books are OK as a part of one's learning strategy, but it is distracting to move from one text to another. That is why listening in L2 while reading in L1 is so efficient and effortless, as long as the language level is appropriate.

I think it is necessary to write simple interesting stories with limited vocabulary and then record them. Let the beginner start with this, then as soon as possible move on to authentic content. It is also important to remember that the interest of the learner in the content is paramount. Not everyone likes the "classics" of literature, although I do.

Here is what I said on my blog.

"To learn a language we need exposure to that language, the more the better. One of the great failings of many language teaching programs is the assignment of learning tasks that detract from time the learner could be spending just exposed to the language, or else are so boring as to discourage the learner from spending enough time studying at all.

What LingQ (www.lingq.com)tries to do is to encourage more listening and reading (exposure) while at the same time bringing in all the other components necessary for achieving fluency, vocabulary learning, writing and speaking.

This post on a language learning forum (link to post on this Forum) describes a method of learning that focuses on using bilingual texts. One of the learning activities suggested is to listen to the target language while reading in your own or a familiar language. I have been testing this and have asked others to test this. Will it work for beginners? For what level of learner does this work? How does it fit into a pattern of study?

I have been using this method for Russian. I plan to test it from scratch with the next language I go to study. Here is what I do.

I am reading Anna Karenina by Tolstoy. I first listen to 5 chapters of the audio book while at the same time reading quietly from the English translation. This takes about 20-30 minutes. I then go to LingQ and read these 5 chapters on the computer, saving words and phrases. Then I listen to another 5 chapters as before and repeat the process. Every so often I review my saved words and phrases. I find this enjoyable and effective.

We will have content at various levels of difficulty in LingQ, including beginner content like The Power of the Linguist. We have translations in some languages and hope that our members will give us more translations. I believe that a beginner could start with listening to a simple story in a new language for 15 minutes while reading along in a familiar language. This starts to give a flavour of the language. The learner then needs to read the text in shorter segments in LingQ, building up his or her vocabulary.

I believe this will be more enjoyable and more effective than coming face to face with a lot of explanations and distracting examples and questions or drills right from the beginning.

I would call this approach Accelerated Language Exposure (ALE). I think that when this is done in conjunction with LingQ it can produce results for beginner and intermediate learners who have trouble reading comfortably in the new language. I am looking forward to seeing other people try this.

We hope some of our members will create easy content for us in various languages. We hope some of our members will create near to word for word translations for this material. Don't forget you can earn points for doing so. In the case of works of literature, there are lots of translations available free of charge on the web. It should be possible to experiment with this approach in many ways.

Anyway that will all happen in August, once we get going. Meanwhile I just finished reading 5 chapters of Anna Karenina in Russian at LingQ, reviewing some words and now I am going off to listen to 5 more chapters of my Anna Karenina audio book while at the same time silently reading the English translation.

Let me know if you try this or any variation of it."

www.thelinguist.blogs.com

Edited by Zhuangzi on 22 July 2007 at 11:34pm

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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4992 days ago

2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 139 of 489
23 July 2007 at 12:21am | IP Logged 
Zhuangzi wrote:
I am reading Anna Karenina by Tolstoy. I first listen to 5 chapters of the audio book while at the same time reading quietly from the English translation. This takes about 20-30 minutes. I then go to LingQ and read these 5 chapters on the computer, saving words and phrases. Then I listen to another 5 chapters as before and repeat the process. Every so often I review my saved words and phrases. I find this enjoyable and effective.


This seems to be a hybrid approach, combining software-based look-up and flashcarding of new words with the "listening-reading" technique. If it is true that after 3 "listening-reading" passes many words will stay in one's memory anyway, it may be unnecessary.

Not everyone likes repetition, of course, so this may offer a possible alternative to making multiple LR passes on long works, but this alternative would need to be tested for effectiveness and efficiency compared to the original LR technique.

Availability of a convenient tool for looking up words and turning them into word lists and/or electronic flashcards can be a factor in such comparison. This tool can be simply a combination of an electronic flashcard program and an electronic dictionary, while something like LingQ may come with additional features.

Either approach would likely work well and be more a matter of preference once one is past the fundamentals. I wonder which one would be the better one to start out with in a totally new language. I see a possible problem with looking up words before one has developed any feel for what their different forms may look like, even when the dictionary can "figure it out" for you. On the other hand, some people may find it easier than others to develop that feel with the LR technique alone.

P.S. Even though a controversy has developed in this thread (in subsequent posts), since I am just an unaffiliated curious observer, I will provide a link to LingQ demos, to be examined from the bottom of that page up. The feature that intrigues me the most is the highlighting of all the words on your electronic flashcards in any subsequent text you read. It will need some work - it can't in its present form handle detached prefixes for German verbs, for example, but it can handle individual words and contiguous phrases.


Edited by frenkeld on 23 July 2007 at 3:31am

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tmesis
Senior Member
Mayotte
Joined 4697 days ago

154 posts - 146 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 140 of 489
23 July 2007 at 12:56am | IP Logged 
Zhuangzi wrote:
Post


I believe there's a policy against promoting the URL of one's own commercial site here. Rules and regulations aside, speaking only for myself, I found your last post hard to swallow. It may be that the ideas you bring up and your systems that have such clever wordplays and acronyms worked into their names are revolutionary. I do not know.

However, the URLs of your commercial venture having been pimped twice over into what essentially amounts to a textual informercial, the conflict of interest alone is enough to ensure that I will never use your product, no matter how superior it turns out to be.

From one language lover to another, I beg you to participate as a layman. Please don't make me second guess your motives.

Having said my piece, this will be my last post on the topic in this thread.
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Zhuangzi
Nonaglot
Language Program Publisher
Senior Member
Canada
lingq.com
Joined 5077 days ago

646 posts - 687 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 141 of 489
23 July 2007 at 1:44am | IP Logged 
tmesis

If your post represents the attitude of a majority at this forum then this will be my last post here. Assimil is mentioned regularly here, as are other commercial products and services.The books you buy, the music you listen to, are all commercial, because people like to get paid for their professional activity.

I have an interest in exchanging views on language learning. I have devoted 5 years to developing a new approach to language learning. I am not supported by government grants nor any other organization. I am driven by my passion for the subject and am interested in what others are doing.

You, apparently, are more interested in standing on your anti-commercial soap box than exploring language learning. To me your anti-commercial bias is just posturing as I assume that you do have an occupation whereby you earn a living.
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FSI
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4408 days ago

550 posts - 590 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 142 of 489
23 July 2007 at 2:03am | IP Logged 
I too would appreciate it if you posted without constantly referring to your paid language products. There is a difference between our unafilliated discussion on Assimil, FSI, Michel Thomas, etc - and nearly 38 consecutive self-referential posts to a personal, profit-generating site.

There are other members of this site with published material on language learning - including Don Casteel himself, the man behind Platiquemos - but virtually none of these members continuously provide information about their products without solicitation.

I have no interest in seeing you leave, but I would fancy it far more decent if your posts didn't seem more interested in attracting paid subscribers to (your site) than they did in sharing your (pecuniary-free) thoughts on language learning.
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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4410 days ago

102 posts - 240 votes 

 
 Message 143 of 489
23 July 2007 at 2:39am | IP Logged 
WARNING
I AM AGAINST ANY COMMERCIAL USE OF ANYTHING BY MY HUMBLE SELF.

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4752 days ago

9084 posts - 16476 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 144 of 489
23 July 2007 at 4:28am | IP Logged 
On the other hand the constant promotion of Assimil, FSI, Michel Thomas, etc. can also be a bit tiresome, even when it is done by enthousiastic users with no economical interests. You could say that those of us who have proposed our own methods with no reference to those very popular products are lucky that we can do so without reference to any commercial product. As for Zhuangsi's method it is not my cup of tea, but I hope he will stay here on the forum to discuss the principles behind it (and not to sell it).

Edited by Iversen on 23 July 2007 at 4:28am



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