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Listening-Reading system

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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luke
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5367 days ago

3133 posts - 4350 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Esperanto, French

 
 Message 81 of 489
13 July 2007 at 9:59pm | IP Logged 
Here is The Little Prince in Spanish with audio and text:

El Principito

An alternative reading of Le Petit Prince in French is at wordtheque.

HTale wrote:
Perhaps we should collaborate to create interlinear texts in various language pairs.

Perhaps someone could write a program in Perl that would read two text files and split the documents at each punctuation mark, creating an interlineal text. That would seem like the most effective way to get started with languages that aren't too exotic.   Some manual edits would still be necessary, but if a program could do 80-90% of the work, a lot of effort would be saved.

Edited by luke on 14 July 2007 at 6:51am

1 person has voted this message useful



fanatic
Octoglot
Senior Member
Australia
speedmathematics.com
Joined 5308 days ago

1152 posts - 1814 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, French, Afrikaans, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Dutch
Studies: Swedish, Norwegian, Polish, Modern Hebrew, Malay, Mandarin, Esperanto

 
 Message 82 of 489
14 July 2007 at 1:19am | IP Logged 
It is interesting that my brother and I have interlinear texts in Hebrew and have found them to be counter-productive. We felt the texts slowed down our learning because we were inclined to be lazy with the interlinear texts.

Reading this thread has changed my mind. I have an interlinear version of the Hebrew Bible and the entire Bible in mp3 audio. The work has already been done. I also have some books with the texts side by side with only three or four words of text in the target language. I can easily recognise which word will be which so it is almost as good as interlinear.

I would like to give this a try.

Edited by fanatic on 14 July 2007 at 1:21am

1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4865 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 83 of 489
14 July 2007 at 4:35am | IP Logged 
I had also more or less dropped bilingual editions for my intensive reading because I learnt more from making an ultra-literal translation myself, - at most the third part translation could serve as a checklist. However this thread brought me on the thought that the real benefit of bilingual editions would be to make it possible for you to do extensive reading long before you normally would be able to do it (or extensive listening, if you follow the original advice from siomotteikiru and use audiobooks). But only if the two versions can be read almost as a normal texts, and in my opinion that can only be done if the translation is just above or beneath the original.

So I spent a couple of hours yesterday (Friday) on making a Russian - Danish interlinear version of one of H.C: Andersens less known tales ("Everything in its right place"). As a result I now know how labour intensive it is. However during the process you do get quite a lot of exposure to the foreign language version so if you are still a struggling learner the time is not totally wasted.

Problem nr. 1: You cannot expect punctuation marks to to coincide. Andersen often uses just a comma where the Russian translation has a full stop. Problem nr. 2: if the interlinear version has to be effective, the version in your own language should be right underneath the target language version - and to achieve this you have to subdivide the sentences (which may be difficult to do because the two versions sometimes don't correspond). Problem nr. 3: the translation may not be faithful to the original, - for instance there could be cuts or additions or very freely rendered sections. Some translators think they are authors themselves and behave accordingly.

I used the translations from this site. Problem nr. 4: copyright on the works of Mr. Andersen may have run out, but probably not on most of the translations, so I can't just publish the interlinear versions on the internet - even if that would be very convenient for language learners. If you did it with contemporary authors Justice might come heavily down indeed on your sinful head...


Edited by Iversen on 14 July 2007 at 4:50am

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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4523 days ago

102 posts - 242 votes 

 
 Message 84 of 489
14 July 2007 at 5:17am | IP Logged 
Interlinear e-texts should be made by people who already know the two languages. And translated word-for-word, otherwise they do not make much sense.

They are not necessary. It is enough to make vertical parallel columns.


How big media uses technology and the law to lock down culture and control creativity
http://www.free-culture.cc/freeculture.pdf

And the same text in Polish
http://www.futrega.org/wk/

Edited by siomotteikiru on 14 July 2007 at 5:25am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4865 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 85 of 489
14 July 2007 at 6:30am | IP Logged 
siomotteikiru wrote:
Interlinear e-texts should be made by people who already know the two languages. And translated word-for-word, otherwise they do not make much sense.
They are not necessary. It is enough to make vertical parallel columns.


I have a lot of bilingual texts in parallel columns, but that format doesn't work as well for me as the interlinear format, where I can move swiftly through the texts, reading both lines almost like piano music on two staves. Switching from side to side doesn't give me that feeling of processing two languages simultanously.

And yes, ideally people who know both languages should make the interlinear versions. But these people don't have the incentive to do so, - I would for instance not waste my time on doing the English - Danish combination because I already know both languages.

I did the experiment with Russian - Danish because I'm at the stage where such a bilingual would be nice to have, but I'm also at the stage where I can fairly consistently identify the separating points even though I couldn't just sit down in my comfy chair and read the Russian version without a dictionary. I may make mistakes, but only in obscure passages where the two versions aren't parallel.

I had expected that only a word-for-word translation would serve the purpose, and of course it would be better than a more 'literary' translation, but my experience with the tale by Andersen has shown me that even a run-of-the-mill translation does provide enough clues to be of service for an upper-level beginner (which is where I classify myself when speaking of Russian)

Edited by Iversen on 14 July 2007 at 6:36am

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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4523 days ago

102 posts - 242 votes 

 
 Message 86 of 489
14 July 2007 at 6:44am | IP Logged 
They do not feel like it, that's the trouble.

I've made about 350 (three hundred and fifty) parallel novels for OTHER PEOPLE TO ENJOY.

And that's why I posted the info about listeng-reading. For OTHERS TO USE IT.

TOGETHER WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.


4 persons have voted this message useful



HTale
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4540 days ago

164 posts - 167 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written)*
Studies: French

 
 Message 87 of 489
14 July 2007 at 1:04pm | IP Logged 
Is there any way I can make an attatchment? I've done the first paragraph of 'Harry Potter and the Prisonner of Azkaban', in French and English, but I can write out the first sentence of each:

Á bien des égards, Harry Potter était un garçon des plus singuliers.

Harry Potter was a highly unusual boy in many ways.


Of course, the same meaning exists in both sentences, but the word order isn't the same. I have little knowledge of French grammar to know whether or not I can add "Á bien des égards" at the end, or, as I have done, should change the word order of the English version - but doing so in some other circumstances may change the flow of the story.

There are also many turns of phrases that are giving me trouble:

au beau milieu de la nuit

as a translation of 'in the middle of the night'. Again, should I add a margin note to say this is just a turn of phrase, or should I rephrase the English?

As far as automating the process, I think it could become troublesome. You cannot match word for word each sentence (this is clear), but also, some languages have 'stricter' punctuation rules than others (for instance, the use of the comma in French, as oppose to its usage in English, or the different methods of representing speech marks, or question marks, etc.).

EDIT: I just properly read siomotteikiru's post. I think I'll do columns - it's far easier!

Edited by HTale on 14 July 2007 at 1:10pm

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siomotteikiru
Senior Member
Zaire
Joined 4523 days ago

102 posts - 242 votes 

 
 Message 88 of 489
14 July 2007 at 1:45pm | IP Logged 
A piece of advice once more:

Don't make interlinear texts yourself if you do not know both languages, it is a waste of time and effort.
Make parallel vertical texts or just use printed books.

Read a page or a paragraph (in your mother tongue), do STEP 2 AND 3 one to three times and go on. Do it from the beginning to the end of the novel. Then start again from the beginning, it will be much easier. The third time should be quite easy.
The longer the novel the better.

You might want to read something more about text statistics, IDIOLECT and memory first.

And try not to use popular pulp fiction (Harry Potter etc), they are usually very poorly translated. Use good literature - it is more probable the translation will match the original.


And please, please, do not pm me just to say thank you or ask irrelevant questions or any such trifles, I won't answer.

Edited by siomotteikiru on 14 July 2007 at 1:55pm



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