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Chung at work / Chung pri práci | ||
Tags: Azerbaijani | Uzbek | Turkic languages | Uralic Languages | Slovak | Comic Strip/Cartoon | Serbian | Serbo-Croatian | Ukrainian | Croatian | Endangered Language | Linguistics | Hungarian | Finnish | Turkish | Polish | Korean | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 329 of 541 05 June 2013 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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technically itkettyä would be there in between, but i've never seen it (other than as a participle).
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| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4561 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 330 of 541 05 June 2013 at 3:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Darn, you're almost right. If this is the official and final truth on the matter, it looks like the missing form is 'itketättää'. This sounds REALLY weird to me, for some reason. Apparently with many verbs my first instinct is to skip the double causative (1c) and use the triple causative (1d) in its place, instead. Tehdä is one of the few exceptions—probably because teettää and teetättää are among the most commonly used causative forms. To be honest though, I had teetättää and teetätyttää down as synonyms before I saw that article, so I guess this goes to show that anything past the first recursion is a gray area for a lot of native speakers. Edited by sans-serif on 05 June 2013 at 3:59pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 331 of 541 06 June 2013 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Whatever I put in the Romanian profile will have to suffice. Serpent knows how I feel as she explained when we were drawing up teams late last year (the Romance/Slavonic one in particular).
(N.B. bolded text is my emphasis, ;-)) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4709 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 332 of 541 06 June 2013 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I was kidding, Chung ;)
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 333 of 541 06 June 2013 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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:))) speaking of that, I think next year I want to be a proper member of team jää/lód (don't have the correct diacritics but you know what I mean).
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 334 of 541 11 June 2013 at 5:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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BCMS/SC
I finished working through Chapter 10 of both “Beginner’s Serbian” and “Teach Yourself Serbian”. The dialogue in the former involved Milan, Đorđe and Gordana planning a trip to Montenegro and introduced the future tense, relative pronouns and the distinction between šta? “what?” and što “that”. The dialogues in the latter were about family and private homes while the grammar introduced was declension of certain “irregular” terms for people (e.g. d(ij)ete “child”, otac “father”), adjectival forms of personal names (familiar to me from Czech, Slovak and Ukrainian), dative singular, and plural for dative, locative and instrumental. 
(From Qolombo) 1) “Hello! May I?” 2) “Excuse me, I’ve gotten a bit lost. Where’s this boat sailing?” 3) “Uh, we’re looking for a western path to India!” 4) “Opa! And I thought that I had got lost!” Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) (this will be put in both scripts partially to accommodate those unused to Serbian Cyrillic and also so that I get at least a little bit of practice using the keyboard layout for Serbian Cyrillic). NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular) VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb]) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given See here for the rationale of the excursus devoted to comparing Croatian and Serbian using the dialogues of “Beginner’s Croatian” and “Beginner’s Serbian” published by Hippocrene Books. Resources include descriptive dictionary of standard Croatian based on the work of Anić et al., Benson’s SerboCroatian-English Dictionary, Alexander’s Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, a Grammar: With Sociolinguistic Commentary and discussions on usage in BCMS/SC from Unilang and WordReference. Chapter 10 1) Cr: obitelj | Sr: porodica “family” When referring to family in a sociological sense, the terms used indeed differ. However, porodica is valid in standard Croatian and is typically used when referring to groups or “families” in taxonomy. Likely to the chagrin of Croatian purists, the Croatian descriptive dictionary also notes that porodica as a synonym for the standard obitelj occurs as a colloquialism, albeit a Serbianism. 2) Cr: vlak | Sr: voz “train” This pair differs in a somewhat similar way to obitelj and porodica. On one hand, vlak is a Croatianism arising as a loanword from Czech vlak which in turn is a calque of the German Zug. On the other hand, voz is related to the verb voziti “to drive”. Furthermore, voz is the standard term to all native speakers of BCMS/SC for a cart or wagon. In other words the difference in the use of voz is its additional meaning of “train” for Bosnians and Serbs. The distinction reminds me slightly of the use of the word “carriage” in the Anglosphere. What Americans call a “subway car” or “passenger car” is referred to as a “carriage” by Britons which all seems a little quaint to me since that word conjures images of a vehicle that’s pulled by horses or pushed by people (I’m thinking of “baby carriage” for the latter but I’ve read that some people in the northeastern US use “shopping carriage” for what I call a “shopping cart”). 3) Cr: navečer | Sr: uveče “in the evening” Each adverb is the standard way to translate “in the evening”, however the descriptive dictionary of standard Croatian shows uveče(r) as a colloquialism but not a Serbianism as might be inferred by a simple comparison of the adverbs and the distinction between the večer and veče (see here for discussion on this pair). 4) Cr: otok | Sr: ostrvo “island” Unlike the preceding three pairs, each word is codified for its respective standard and the difference is uncontroversial. In this way, the difference in this pair is similar to that between “Croatian” kazalište and “non-Croatian” pozorište with each word being an independent derivation of a root of Slavonic origin (see here for comparison of kazalište and pozorište). 5) Cr: kuhati | Sr: kuvati “to cook” This pair is a common example in lists that illustrate the differences between Croatian and Serbian, but it’s not as regular, simple or systematic as sometimes implied. In an experiment done in 2008 involving Croats “translating” or “Croatianizing” short texts produced in Serbia, the researchers concluded that the translations showed that the contrast of -h- with -v- was lexically-specific and was not a phonemic distinction. A phonemic distinction would contradict the experiment's inference/conclusion that Croatian and Serbian use the same grammatical components including the same phonemic inventory (see here for study's abstract, full study including observations on -h- versus -v- available on JSTOR). Examples of contrast of “Croatian” -h- with “Serbian” -v- Cr: duhan | Sr: duvan “tobacco” Cr: joha | Sr: jova “alder” Cr: muha | Sr: muva “fly” (insect) Cr: pastuh | Sr: pastuv “stallion” Cr: suha | Sr: suva “dry” Cr: uho | Sr: uvo “ear” Examples where the contrast breaks down (i.e. “Croatian” -h- does not correspond to “Serbian” -v- and vice-versa) Cr: deva | Sr: deva “camel” (i.e. “Croatian” *deha is spurious) Cr: duh | Sr: duh “spirit” (i.e. “Serbian” *duv is spurious) Cr: krhak | Sr: krhak “fragile” (i.e. “Serbian” *krvak is spurious) Cr: krv | Sr: krv “blood” (i.e. “Croatian” *krh is spurious) Cr: kuhinja | Sr: kuhinja “kitchen” (i.e. “Serbian” *kuvinja is spurious) Cr: rov | Sr: rov “ditch” (i.e. “Croatian” *roh is spurious) *** FINNISH I’ve been finished the exercises for Unit 2 in FSI’s workbook and am working on Unit 3. There’s nothing exciting to report, and for anyone interested in the subject matter that I’m dealing with, here’s where the unit’s notes on grammar begin. I’m just working on getting myself used to speaking at least some Finnish even though I have no one here to interact with in live conversation. 
(B. Virtanen as used in Ammattiyhdistysliikettä moititaan usein vanhoihin kaavoihin kangistumisesta ja kehityksen jaaruna ole-misesta) 1) “Don’t always whine and be depressed like that! It’ll soon spread to the whole office!” 2) “She’s right. I’ll be happy even if I have to force it!” 3) “♪ Tra-la-la tvi-doli-di-di ♫ – That’s hopefully nothing contagious!” - tarttua (tartun, tarttui, tarttunut) “to catch, adhere to [+ illative]; be contagious” - tarttuva (tarttuvan, tarttuvaa, tarttuvia) “contagious; adhesive; catchy” - työyhteisö (työyhteisön, työyhteisöä, työyhteisöjä) “work community” - vaikka väkisin “by force if necessary” - valittaa (valitan, valitti, valittanut) “to groan; complain [+ (elative)]; appeal [+ (elative)]; regret [+ (partitive)]” Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural) VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given *** POLISH I finished Chapter 20 of "Polish in 4 Weeks - II". The dialogue consisted of Basia getting introduced to the employees at her new job. The main topics for grammar were uses of the accusative plural and its syncretism with genitive plural for masculine animate nouns, and declension for plural masculine animate nouns and adjectives. None of the material was new to me, but it wasn’t a waste of my time to review it in the exercises. 
(From Real Life via Smiech.net) 1) “Greg, you really have to clean your car.” 2) “Relax. It’s not that bad.” 3) “Greg, I just saw some little critters living on the back seat!” 4) “I know. Aren’t they adorable?” - stworzonko (stworzonka, stworzonek) “creature; creation” (diminutive) Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (nominative plural, genitive singular) VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 2nd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb]) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given *** TURKISH I’ve finished Unit 10 of “Teach Yourself Beginner’s Turkish”. The unit’s dialogues were about talking about past events which unsurprisingly led to the chapter’s main focus for grammar: past tense. I have now finished working through the course and as I’ve mentioned here, the language just hasn’t fascinated me as much as I had thought that it would / should. I think that it’s a combination of my lacking a personal connection to Turks (I don't have Turkish friends) and its relative linguistic exoticness (says the guy who’s studying Northern Saami but believe me, Northern Saami isn’t that exotic after having gained some knowledge of Estonian and Finnish). daristani and William Camden have touched on it briefly that its typology takes a lot of work to get used to after having been raised on Standard Average European. It’s not so much the canonical SOV word order (I got used that quickly enough, thanks partially to some dabbling in Mari) but that so many concepts or structures that I’m accustomed to expressing with stand-alone particles or (as I’ve read elsewhere but haven’t learned yet) relative clauses are regularly handled instead by agglutination. In addition the boundaries between nouns or adjectives on one hand and verbs on another are a little blurrier than I’m used to. E.g. - Nasılsın? – İyiyim. “How are you? – I am fine/good.” (literally “How-[2nd person singular suffix]?” – “Good-[1st person singular suffix]”) - Hava nasıldı? – Berbattı. “How was the weather? – It was awful.” (literally “Weather how-[3rd person singular past tense suffix]?” – “Awful-[3rd person singular past tense suffix]”) I’m not sure if I’ll continue with Turkish or try to satisfy a bit of wanderlust by dabbling in Azeri using this beginner’s course, and the Peace Corps’ Manual and Basic Language Survival Kit. At the same time I’m not quitting “Yürükler” and besides I set up the team so that it can become a Turkic team in case of wandering off to related paths (cf. yürümek “to walk, wander”, Yörükler [nomadic tribes living in the mountains of southern Turkey]) *** OTHER LANGUAGES Maybe something about my other Eastern European languages later this week for old times' sake? ______ 
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7158 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 335 of 541 17 June 2013 at 4:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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This will almost certainly be my last entry until July. There's a chance that I'll add a snippet about BCMS/SC tomorrow since I was doing a bit of shadowing and L-R with "Spoken World Croatian" today while commuting but I have a lot on my mind right now.
I'll be visiting Finland and Serbia and will be trying to use whatever I've (re)learned over the last little while. In line with my nerdiness, I'm bringing along TY Finnish and TY Serbian, as well as booklets with just transcripts of the dialogues from a few of my other courses for Finnish and BCMS/SC so that I can do a bit of L-R or even review a bit of grammar. My MP3 player will indeed have interesting playlists but I wouldn't want it any other way. *** BCMS/SC I finished working through Chapter 11 of both “Beginner’s Serbian” and “Teach Yourself Serbian”. The dialogue in the former was about the protagonists’ car ride to Montenegro and a pit-stop for gas and snacks and was accompanied by a formal introduction to verbal aspect and using the preposition po. The latter contained dialogues about trips and preparing for trips. The grammar introduced was first future tense, accusative and genitive of personal pronouns, declension of certain “irregular” neuter nouns (e.g. vrata “door”, vr(ij)eme “time”) and conjugation of certain classes of verbs (i.e. those ending with –isati and –sti in infinitive). Here’s another conincidence where the textbooks’ dialogues in the chapters of the same number broadly followed the same theme of travel. 
(From Politikin zabavnik - stripovi and reduced on imgur for posting on the forum) 1) “Hee hee hee hee! – Why are you giggling?” 2) “I’ve gotten rid of the mice! – How?” 3) “I set mousetraps with little pieces of hamburger! – Oh no!” 4) “Not with hamburger!” - kikotati (kikoćem, kikoću) “to giggle” (кикотати (кикоћем, кикоћy) - parčić (parčića) “little piece” (парчић (парчића)) - r(j)ešavati se > r(ij)ešiti se (r(j)ešavam se, r(j)ešavaju se > r(ij)ešim se, r(ij)eše se) “to get rid of” (р(ј)ешвати се > р(иј)ешити се (р(ј)ешавам се, р(ј)ешавају се > р(иј)ешим се, р(иј)еше се)) Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) (this will be put in both scripts partially to accommodate those unused to Serbian Cyrillic and also so that I get at least a little bit of practice using the keyboard layout for Serbian Cyrillic). NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular) VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb]) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given See here for the rationale of the excursus devoted to comparing Croatian and Serbian using the dialogues of “Beginner’s Croatian” and “Beginner’s Serbian” published by Hippocrene Books. Resources include descriptive dictionary of standard Croatian based on the work of Anić et al., Benson’s SerboCroatian-English Dictionary, Alexander’s Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, a Grammar: With Sociolinguistic Commentary and discussions on usage in BCMS/SC from Unilang and WordReference. Chapter 11 1) Cr: isprava | Sr: dokument “document” For practical purposes these words are synonyms found in all variants of BCMS/SC. The only difference that I could find is that isprava can also be translated as “chart” which is not true for dokument. 2) Cr: putovnica | Sr: pasoš “passport” This pair is a common example in lists or discussions on the differences between Croatian and Serbian, but it’s not as decisive as the proponents of such material suggest or like to believe. The descriptive dictionary of standard Croatian lists pasoš as a colloquiallism but not a Serbianism contrary to what I’ve often seen and been told by all native speakers. *** FINNISH I’ve finished the exercises for Unit 3 in FSI’s workbook and have started working on those in Unit 4. As the date for my visit to Finland approaches, I’m trying to work in as much practice or drilling as possible without burning myself out. 
(From Viivi ja Wagner 11.6.2013 – Ajassa - Plaza) 2) “Hey, stop it! It’s really irritaing!” 3) “There’s also a dark side in a piggy. – Heh-heh-heh” - possu (possun, possua, possuja) “pig” [diminutive or used by young children] - ärsyttävä (ärsyttävän, ärsyttävä, ärsyttäviä) “irritating” Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural) VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given *** SLOVAK Yesterday I did the exercises on pgs. 32-33 in the textbook for “Hovorme spolu po slovensky! B - Slovenčina ako cudzí jazyk”. These were listening comprehension and quasi-dictation exercises involving means of transport. Again this is a lot less than I usually do before putting a note about Slovak in my log but as noted earlier, it’s been pushed down for the time being when it comes to the priority accorded to other languages. 
(From S H O O T Y - …som Grogy) 4) “Pull yourself together!” 5) “You must do this for yourself.” 6) “You must succeed.” 7) “Don’t give up before the goal!” 8) “What’ll be today, boss?” Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary) - vzdávať sa > vzdať sa (vzdáva sa > vzdá sa) “to surrender” - vzchopiť sa (vzchopí sa) “to pull oneself together” [perfective only] NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular) VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb]) ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given Here’s a comic strip in Czech as a bonus for anyone reading this entry (and because I haven’t done much work in Slovak for a while). 
(From CyanideAndHappiness.cz | Tetování) 1) “Check out my new tattoo!” 2) “I don’t see any.” 3) “It’s an invisible tattoo! – Put your shirt back on, please.” *** OTHER LANGUAGES It seems to be an eternity since I’ve last looked at Hungarian and Ukrainian. ______
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| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5351 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 336 of 541 17 June 2013 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Nice to see a bonus Czech comic strip!
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