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Understudied European languages | ||
Tags: European Languages | Rare Languages | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 65 of 85 29 August 2013 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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You see? The "Eastern Europe" label even if minds of such educated people. But we are not eastern europe. By all the geo-socio-political norms, we are part of the central Europe. And historical as well, except for fourty unhappy years.
Yet we are still called Eastern. That brings a lot of trouble. Many importers sell worse quality things and food to our shops for the same prices as to Germany and there is little the customers can do against it (unless you live close enough to the borders). Czech girls doing au-pair in the UK are often being expected not to know the dishwasher. When I am asked where I am from, many people anywhere expect the CR to be part of Russia. You see the problem? Of course it is flattering for me as a Czech when someone, like Chung, learns the language. And that someone, like tarvos, likes Prague (even though I would be much prouder to live in a city called one of the modern bustling metropolies, not basically a museum). But it is very bitter to be called "eastern". I don't mean to offend the Russians, Ukrainians and so on. It is just the fact that there are huge differences between the central europe and eastern europe and being considered one mix is hurting both, in my opinion. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 66 of 85 29 August 2013 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | ||
It is impossible to revive a language unless the citizens themselves have a desire to speak it. Eire is a prime example, massive resources poured into Irish yet the public refused to join the party. At the other end of the scale, you had Hebrew brought back from the dead and now flourishing in Israel. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 67 of 85 29 August 2013 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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I do understand the tension on being labelled eastern or western, but I find it useful and definitely do not hold it maliciously. It's politically incorrect, but if you know me well, I'm equal opportunity in this area.
The problem that I have with "Central Europe" is that it's based primarily on visual examination of the western peninsula of Eurasia. It's held to include Austria, Germany, Switzerland, the Višegrad Four and Slovenia, yet Cavesa's own comments illustrate the disparity when she regrets that Czech Republic could have been thriving like Austria and Switzerland. For various reasons, being labelled "Eastern" among most Europeans outside the former USSR is perceived negatively (which I think is rather unhelpful in self-perception but interesting nonetheless). Ut follows that anything to suppress this "eastern" label is welcome (cf. Croatian bristling over Croats and Croatia being viewed as Balkan (i.e. "non-Western") rather than Central European). What also complicates this is that in Central Europe there was cultural or linguistic domination going on with my sense that being under the heel of Germans/Austrians/Italians/French and sometimes even Hungarians is looked upon as preferable to being dominated or influenced by Turks, Russians or Mongols. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 68 of 85 29 August 2013 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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Because the Irish already have a language they feel to be their own and it happens to be the most imporant language of today's world. No wonder it is difficult to revive the language. And they have their own country so they don't need any language to be the string that ties them together. But as someone mentioned, Welsh is quite successful, perhaps because the people feel the need to distinguish their region inside the bigger UK.
The Czech language was in different situation. I believe that had the czechs succeeded with the first idea: semiautonomy, like the Hungarian one, Czech would stayed just one of the languages in the country (either dying out or alive among those who felt to be ethnical Czechs). But the semiautonomy was not delivered, despite the importance of the region for the AU Empire and other good reasons. And only then the larger circles joined the intellectuals and naively thought the best path for the Czech nation would be our own state, their own official language an economy. Chung, of course it is looked upon as preferable. Turks, Russians and Mongols were never known as sources of hapiness for the countries under their influence. And I think it is just difficult to understand the feelings towards the Russian language as a symbol of oppresion from somewhere else. A week ago, it was 45 years from the occupation and end to all the hopes there had been. We would have headed a different direction 20 years earlier without that sad event. Chung, are you surprised we don't welcome being called eastern? Or that we don't seek our common roots more and that we are not proud of them? There are no common roots, except for the languages. The history of my nation was ok until some madmen started looking for eastern roots and fraternizing with the east too much. And of course it was always just a question of under whose heel it is better to be. Because a small nation between the large ones doesn't have any other choice. Switzerland is a miracle. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 69 of 85 30 August 2013 at 12:02am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm not at all surprised about the negative associations of the "east" knowing the history. However, I as an observer and regular visitor to the area find it vaguely discomforting on the sort of binary approach that's allowed to take hold in the Višegrad 4 where since the East is bad, then the West can only be good. I wish that it were that simple, but it's not. Even in Poland, a few of my friends are annoyed by the degree to which nationalism is thrown about and that Polish foreign policy is aligned that closely to that of the USA (well, at least the Poles aren't goose-stepping on orders from the Kremlin, right?). While I've never had to suffer under such blatant imposition of a language as a means of humiliation, my cynicism also makes me aware of Realpolitik (e.g. Yalta, Soviet "liberation" etc.)
In any case, my sense is that the pendulum is allowed to swing too far to the extremes. In the urge to distance oneself from one party, there's a stampede to the other one. I would say that rise of nationalism was a boon and curse and the cause of the trouble. On one hand, it gave rise to the heroes of Czech culture whom you hold less than favourably, and development of some sort of Czech identity and language. On the other hand, it lead to the fragmentation of the area such that divide and conquer was made easier for a couple of neighbours who turned the same nationalism into a way to unify and expand their communities at the expense of others. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4621 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 70 of 85 30 August 2013 at 12:31am | IP Logged | ||
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It is better that the Czech people can control their own destiny instead of being a small cog in a big empire or
under the thumb of an occupying power. The Czechs have a language to call their own which allows them to express their reclaimed culture. Why shoud they trade that in for German? This must be a minority viewpoint within the republic. Of course, Czech people are free to learn English, German or even Russian but most choose not to do so, preferring instead to speak their own language, which brings me back to my point about our mothertongue being an identity marker. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5008 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 71 of 85 30 August 2013 at 12:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I don't say the West is only good, not at all. That's why we need our own, middle, central path.
We lost the opportunity to be part of an Empire, it is gone and never will be coming back the same way. Therefore we need our own way. But the way of nationalism isn't one because the nation isn't sticking together and isn't too worthy of it. Some kind of twisted socialism isn't the path, despite what the stupid people think. Passive euroscepticism isn't the way as well. Actually, I don't think this country ever finds a way by itself. Just when it starts to look better, a disaster happens (for example the new president, elected due to crowds of easily manipulated senile people in retirement homes and poor envious people not thinking much). I actually believe the best way would be to take as active part as possible in forming the EU as it should be. The EU liberal on the inside and strong from the outside, not just America's dog. The EU defending the people while restricting them as little as possible. The EU where noone will need nationalism anymore and where will be no labels "Eastern" or "Western". But I may be a naive idealist here, true. In such EU, we could cherish any language as it wouldn't be tied to nacionalism or any other political view. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cristianoo Triglot Senior Member Brazil https://projetopoligRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4120 days ago 175 posts - 289 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, FrenchB2, English Studies: Russian | Message 72 of 85 30 August 2013 at 4:52am | IP Logged | ||
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I think that language is not what brings people together, nor it is what creates
nationalism. It can only express it. One of the most nationalist nations is USA, which doesn't have a language to call their own. They use English, from UK. We in Brazil use Portuguese, from Portugal and yet it doesn't bring us together. In fact, brazillians and portugueses are less allies than brazillians and the rest of Latin America. We have some sort of nation identity to bring us together, a passion for our country. We usually say bad things about our country but we got angry when someone else does! You should do the same. I think you shouldn't think like that about your country. For what I could extract from your text, the problem is all about economics, since you see Switzerland as a good example, despite their size. Economic power must never be used as a parameter to measure the worthiness of a nation, because it can rise and fall easily. I'd rather use other things like how nice is the nations's population and how that nation deals with others, how good is the cultural output (seen outside of softpower dominated eyes, of course) and so. Edited by Cristianoo on 30 August 2013 at 6:58am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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