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Why grammar does not help ( some of us)

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
59 messages over 8 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next >>
patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 4531 days ago
1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 41 of 59
07 September 2013 at 10:39am | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:

I shake my head in disbelief at people who have been in an immersion situation for 5-10-15 years, and still
speak their TL really badly, with horrible grammar and worse pronunciation. I try not to think "How stupid can
they be"? But for them, some structured grammar studying and pronunciation exercises might be the right
thing. We all learn in different ways.


I very much doubt anyone is in a true immersion situation for 10-15 years and doesn't speak well. Most immigrants don't learn a language because they continue to speak/read in their native language.

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Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5332 days ago
4143 posts - 8864 votes 
Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

 
 Message 42 of 59
07 September 2013 at 11:33am | IP Logged 
I guess that would depend on the definition of "true immersion situation". I have met Poles who had lived in
France for 50 years who could not speak French, and Pakistani women who have lived and worked in
Norway for 20 years, and whose Norwegian is still very much flawed. Or the American teacher who has
worked in Norway for 25 years in Norwegian schools, where you practically need to know US. English to
understand his Norwegian since he messes up times and articles, and his pronunciation is beyond belief.
That I simply do not get.

And then there was the American girl who came here at 19 and who I would never had guessed was not
Norwegian, had it not been for her name.

I cannot explain those cases in any different way than that we all have different talents.
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5054 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 43 of 59
07 September 2013 at 12:39pm | IP Logged 
Grammar was invented to make learning languages easier. So it's definitely necessary in
order to learn a language as an adult. But it must be incorporated into various types of
exercises.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Jeffers
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4907 days ago
2151 posts - 3960 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 44 of 59
07 September 2013 at 12:57pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Grammar was invented to make learning languages easier. So it's definitely necessary in
order to learn a language as an adult. But it must be incorporated into various types of
exercises.


That is a non sequitur, like saying, "Diet Coke was invented to make losing weight easier. So it's definitely necessary in order to lose weight."
4 persons have voted this message useful



Stelle
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
tobefluent.com
Joined 4142 days ago
949 posts - 1686 votes 
Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish
Studies: Tagalog

 
 Message 45 of 59
07 September 2013 at 1:34pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
I guess that would depend on the definition of "true immersion situation". I have met
Poles who had lived in
France for 50 years who could not speak French, and Pakistani women who have lived and worked in
Norway for 20 years, and whose Norwegian is still very much flawed. Or the American teacher who has
worked in Norway for 25 years in Norwegian schools, where you practically need to know US. English to
understand his Norwegian since he messes up times and articles, and his pronunciation is beyond belief.
That I simply do not get.

I know that in major Canadian cities, it's very possible to live here for decades without being truly immersed in
either English or French. If enough other people from your homeland live in the area, you can speak your native
language to your neighbours, shopkeepers, doctors, waiters, lawyers, clerks, etc. You can get all of your news in
your native language, through newspapers and TV channels (both local and from abroad). That's not true
immersion, IMO. Likewise, lots of expats from English-speaking countries spend all of their time overseas with
other expats - and so never have to speak anything other than English. I agree with you - it's a shame.
1 person has voted this message useful



patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 4531 days ago
1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 46 of 59
07 September 2013 at 4:57pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
I guess that would depend on the definition of "true immersion situation". I have met Poles who had lived in
France for 50 years who could not speak French, and Pakistani women who have lived and worked in
Norway for 20 years, and whose Norwegian is still very much flawed. Or the American teacher who has
worked in Norway for 25 years in Norwegian schools, where you practically need to know US. English to
understand his Norwegian since he messes up times and articles, and his pronunciation is beyond belief.
That I simply do not get.

And then there was the American girl who came here at 19 and who I would never had guessed was not
Norwegian, had it not been for her name.

I cannot explain those cases in any different way than that we all have different talents.


Immersion to me would mean actually living and speaking the language on a daily basis. It's easy enough to not speak the official language of a foreign country if you hangout with compatriots. I know lots of English speakers here in Berlin who never learn German because their linguist microclimate is English, not German. The guys at my Turkish cornerstore are impressed with my German progress; saying their own father hasn't made that much progress in 20 years of living in Berlin.

I don't think that points to different language talents, just that some people immerse themselves and others not.

Edited by patrickwilken on 07 September 2013 at 6:00pm
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montmorency
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4826 days ago
2371 posts - 3676 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Danish, Welsh

 
 Message 47 of 59
07 September 2013 at 5:47pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Grammar was invented to make learning languages easier. So it's
definitely necessary in
order to learn a language as an adult. But it must be incorporated into various types
of
exercises.


I'd take those first two sentences, and make them a topic for a debate, or an essay, or
perhaps a research project.


The third sentence is quite reasonable, but it then leads into a detailed discussion of
how you might go about this.


An alternative approach for the adult learner is for the language to be taught and
learned in a structured way, such that the grammar becomes self-evident, and doesn't
need to be described in academic terms, or using complicated tables which are likely to
scare many people away, or even described or defined at all, as far as the learner is
concerned. Well, perhaps basic terms like "sentence" "phrase" "noun" "adjective" and
"verb", might be used, but I'm not even sure if that is really necessary.

Natural grammar addicts will find out about all that stuff of their own accord, but
arguably, no one actually needs it in order to speak or understand the spoken language,
and it might get in the way.


As for immigrants being thrown into an alien and possibly hostile environment, "at the
deep end", with possibly little or anything in the way of structured teaching, I'm not
all that surprised if many of them never learn the language properly.
1 person has voted this message useful



Wulfgar
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4669 days ago
404 posts - 791 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 48 of 59
07 September 2013 at 10:17pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Who needs "50 shades of grey" when you have Russian?

Didn't read the book. Is this sort of like "who needs porn when you have Russian"? Thanks for making me laugh anyway. Totally sympathize with the Russian pain - recommend learning only the
cases, verb aspects, verbs of motion, participles and prefixes.
Pure Grammar


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