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Why grammar does not help ( some of us) | ||
Tags: Language Teaching | Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5332 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 49 of 59 07 September 2013 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
It was more like "who needs to read about masochism when you've got Russian" :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4620 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 50 of 59 08 September 2013 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think it's more a case of us having different experiences and desires. The example of Norway proves that virtually anyone can learn a foreign language to a high level. Norwegian children and teenagers have lots of exposure to English coupled with a rigorous teaching programme. But most importantly of all, they genuinely want to learn the language because of the perceived benefits the knowledge will bring. The Pakistani women you mention most likely speak an Asian language at home so their experience of 20 years in Norway does not equal total immersion. Nevertheless, they seem to have learned enough to find regular employment and take participate in their host society. Maybe that's enough for them. They can speak the language and local people understand them. I know British people who have moved abroad and mastered another language, I know others who can say almost nothing. Most people lie somewhere in between. Being married to a native certainly helps. The language spoken in your workplace also has a big influence. But I think by far the biggest factor in successfully acquiring a language is personal desire. Edited by beano on 08 September 2013 at 12:24pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5428 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 51 of 59 09 September 2013 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Although I agree with the bulk of what @beano has said, I would like to make a small point. But first I want to
chide Solfrid for stating that the learning of Norwegian by foreigners is a matter of talent. In my opinion, a so- called knack or talent for languages, if it exists, is only a tiny facor. The main factor in the learning of foreign languages to any degree of proficiency is, for lack of a better term, one's engagement with the language. In its most basic form this the the obligation to use it. Then there are all the usual factors such as age, level of education, schooling in the language, personal motivation, etc. Solfrid knows only too well the benefits of living and schooling in the target language at an early age. I am sure that today in Norway there are many immigrant children speaking native-like Norwegian in the schoolyards. For their parents, it's much more difficult. And when we look at individual cases, you have to look at the history of that individual's interaction with the language. That American girl who came to Norway at age 19 and now speaks perfect Norwegian didn't acquire it miraculously. Talent may have played a part, but I am sure that other things, such as a Norwegian boyfriend, have played an important role. Edited by s_allard on 09 September 2013 at 6:51pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| cacue23 Triglot Groupie Canada Joined 4297 days ago 89 posts - 122 votes Speaks: Shanghainese, Mandarin*, English Studies: Cantonese | Message 52 of 59 11 September 2013 at 2:09am | IP Logged | |||||
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I like grammar, what I hate are exceptions, and French has loads of them.
Also I believe the amount of grammar people should be cramming into their studies is different for every stage of language learning. In the beginning it should be wise to just stick with learning words and talking, even practicing those silly conversations in a Chinese textbook repeatedly. Then gradually learn more words and use them in conversations. Of course, when the sentences get longer some grammar points should be incorporated, but keep it minimal. When the oral and aural skills are reasonably developed, that's the time to start intensive grammar. How I wished I had used this approach in English instead of the intensive-grammar-from-the-start approach we Chinese had to suffer at school. It just drains people of all the interest. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4620 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 53 of 59 11 September 2013 at 9:33am | IP Logged | |||||
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Perhaps it's better to get a measure of speaking skills up and running before trying to fine-tune the grammar. Obvious mistakes at the start should be squashed but there is a lot of stuff that can be fudged for the time being.
I've never really believed in this concept of fossilisation of erros. If people are open to improvement, they can improve their skills at any time. This includes your native language. Edited by beano on 11 September 2013 at 9:34am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 54 of 59 11 September 2013 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Exceptions should basically be memorized as single words, using whatever methods you use for that purpose, and they shouldn't be allowed to spoil the grand picture. But part of the meaning of for instance an aberrant verbal form is the place it occupies in the morphological system. Just as part of the information I have about a street or house is its position on a map.
Btw. When I studied French etc. in the 70s I sometimes saw the absurd claim that morphemes didn't have any meaning in themselves. Nonsense - the meaning of the -s on an English verb is "3. person singular present tense". And the meaning of "-s" on a noun is "plural" or "genitive" (in which case the spelling is slightly different). Sometimes an ending is used in so many places in a paradigm that you hardly can enumerate its uses, like the a's and o's in the inflexion table of Slovenian nouns, which probably is the most complicated I have seen to date (because it has a dual in addition to the singular and plural of other Slavic languages). So if I had to learn Slovenian I would probably try to se the a-areas and the o-areas as colored patterns, and then being part of such a pattern would be the meaning. Or take the -(e)n's of adjectives with definite articles in German, which form pattern covering most slots in the system. Belonging to a 'shaded area' of a morphological table is in itself a meaning because meaning for me is just about anything that can function as a memory hook. The only things I might be tempted to see as meaningless are the individual phonemes and purely sound-based elements like the French liaison s, but even they can in extreme cases be imbued with an ad hoc meaning - such as when you stress a certain syllable to mark the focus of a sentence - or make fun of the dialect of someone by exaggerating certain sounds (a reprehensible practice by any standard, but not uncommon). Edited by Iversen on 11 September 2013 at 2:14pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4531 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 55 of 59 11 September 2013 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
Are genders of words meaningless? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 56 of 59 11 September 2013 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I didn't mention gender in the passage you quoted, but no, grammatical gender is not meaningless. The problem is that it doesn't always correspond to biological gender (for instance 'the girl' "das Mädchen" in German is in the neutrum because it is a diminutive form) so it can be difficult to avoid thinking in misleading terms when using it.
Ultimately the question is: how do you remember the grammatical gender of a word in for instance German, apart from relying on pure repetition? There are some tendencies, but trying to formulate binding rules that cover everything is hardly possible. But learning to recite a verbal rule is not really what I mean by giving a notion a meaning. Diminutives is a fairly welldefined category, so being a diminutive would be a recognizable characteristic of a word. So every time I see "Fräulein" I should jump from 'diminutive' to 'ok, then it must be neutrum' - and with time I should stop short of even thinking this, but just 'feel' that association at some semiconscious level. Alas, not all German words belong to a gender-defining category, and then I have to rely on memories from the times I have seen each word in a suitable setting. In practice this means learning article + noun as an whole, and then it is debatable whether the gender in itself has a meaning apart from being associated with certain articles and certain adjectival endings. But even at this level of pitiful desperation the gender must still colour your perception of the word in some way, because otherwise you wouldn't know how to use it in concrete phrases. A feminine word must have 'something' that characterizes it in the same way as being a member of a certain church or tribe or party characterizes a person in the street - even if it is hard to define. The difference between me and people who just want to learn from context is that I include mass memorizing of nouns with their gender from a dictionary among my learning methods, while they exclude it. But the method is not important: the point is that you have to establish this association with a grammatical gender in the same way (and preferably at the same time) you learn to associate the word with an image or a translation or whatever people use to define the meaning of words. Edited by Iversen on 11 September 2013 at 7:32pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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