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FAQ-NL: Dutch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 201 of 509 26 December 2010 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I've been looking around on onzetaal.nl to see if I could find a concrete rule that proves this sentence is wrong but I can't find anything so I'm going to go with my first instinct and say there is nothing wrong with this sentence. But before I explain why I think this sentence is correct, I should probably mention that I see little reason to get hung up about these things in the first place. Whether this sentence is correct or not, it is something people say and write and neither we nor onzetaal.nl are going to stop that so we might as well resign ourselves to it. But back to the grammatical nitpicking:
I assume that by “the parts of the sentence” you mean the part that is being contracted and that in the case of our sentence, this part is the adverb “op”. I agree that the placement of “op” in this sentence creates ambiguity. (However, I wonder how you could possibly phrase the sentence in a way that solves the ambiguity but doesn't become abnormally long or unnatural.) It’s pretty clear that at the very least it belongs to the verb “opslaan” because without it the word “sla” would make little sense in this sentence. So the question is whether it also belongs to “zoek”. I would say yes but we can’t be sure. If it doesn’t, then the sentence is perfectly correct because ambiguity alone is not good enough a reason to dismiss a sentence as incorrect. If it does belong to both “sla” and “zoek”, we have to get back to the rule quoted above.
This sentence is indeed incorrect because of the rule. “Zet” belongs to both koffie (koffie zetten) and over (overzetten) which are two verbs where the zetten has different meanings and therefore they can’t be contracted. However, in the first sentence, the part of the separable verb that is being contracted is not the verb but the adverb. So the question here really is whether the “op” in “opslaan” and “opzoeken” has the same meaning. When I look up the meaning of “op” as an adverb on wiktionary, admittedly not the greatest source, it gives only one meaning.
No, not really, I’m afraid. Are you saying the inversion in the second clause is incorrect? Or that the subject is left out? (Which it isn’t, je being the subject) I would also argue that there is no tante-Betje constructie present in the sentence at all. A tante-Betje is an incorrect use of inversion in the second of two connected main clauses. In this sentence, the word “terwijl” clearly signals a sub clause, which means it can’t possibly contain a tante-Betje. Edited by ReneeMona on 26 December 2010 at 6:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| stwel Pentaglot Newbie Belgium Joined 5084 days ago 12 posts - 12 votes Speaks: Dutch*, French, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Mandarin, German, Italian | Message 202 of 509 26 December 2010 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I totally agree with what you say here. To me the phrase in question was an acceptable phrase. Now whether it conforms 100% to the "proper" grammar rules of the Dutch language might be another thing, but then again, who cares? I agree that a basic knowledge of grammar is necessary to be able to speak a language, but the more advanced topics should probably only be studied once you reach a certain level of fluency. In my opinion, topics like this are way too theoretical to be bothered with, even for native speakers, except for maybe some die-hard language purists. Edited by stwel on 26 December 2010 at 2:44pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5765 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 203 of 509 26 December 2010 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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First of all: I was mistaken about the tante betje-zin, I agree. that is about a wrong inversion, but indeed, not about this kind.
Secondly: it is quite different to prove something wrong in certain cases, and I am afraid ;-) one is more lenient in these issues than the other. One will approve of certain new trends, others won't. And I tend to slow down the evolution, not just accept everything new "because it is new". But feel free. I still think there is something 'smelly' about the sentence: I'd never use that contraction - because I don't really like it. And I thought the rule I quoted was capable of accounting for that. But that's about it. I do admit I was too quick about the Tante-betje... I jsut think learners need some simple rules and then... some Fingerspitzengefühl... Edited by JanKG on 26 December 2010 at 3:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 204 of 509 26 December 2010 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I agree wholeheartedly with 'little reason to get hung up about' this issue because it is the way it is. And I agree with stwel that there are a lot more important things to worry about while studying a second language. However, indirectly, these kinds of issues are useful far beyond their obscure-grammar face value. Curiosity about a second language is one of the things that keeps a learner coming back. When I, for the first time, encounter two Dutch verbs with only one 'op', that is curious and interesting. Just as intriguing is the fact that three native-Dutch, non-native-English speakers can address such a convoluted topic so well in flawless English. I will never understand how you can learn to write English so well. It makes me worry that my English is in danger of not keeping up the same standard. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 205 of 509 26 December 2010 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I seem to have forgotten a key word in this sentence. So much for my flawless English. ;-)
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that I approve of all changes in a language or accept things because they are new. On the contrary, I’m usually quite a snobbish purist myself but I do try to base my snobbery on actual rules and not sentiment. So I don’t see any reason to consider things wrong when I can’t find a rule that says it is.
Very true! I think everyone here appreciates your interest, tommus, as well as the chance it gives us to be grammar-Nazis. Edited by ReneeMona on 26 December 2010 at 6:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 206 of 509 26 December 2010 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I missed that completely! Good example of the 'Paris in the spring' effect. I'm sure it was a typo and had nothing to do with your English. I see no reason for you to get hung or strung about these things up! Paris in the spring 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Raye Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5152 days ago 37 posts - 51 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: DutchB1 | Message 207 of 509 26 December 2010 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I’m having trouble finding longer journalism pieces to read in Dutch. I actually don’t even know what they’re called in English – news features? I’m thinking of longer, in-depth reporting or essays on culture and politics, like you might find featured in the New York Review of Books, The New Yorker, The Atlantic Monthly, etc. If anyone can point me toward a source for this kind of writing in Dutch, I’d appreciate it.
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| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5765 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 208 of 509 27 December 2010 at 3:13am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Well, there are some interesting newspapers at least
- NRC, Volkskrant, Trouw, etc. in the Netherlands - De Standaard, De Morgen, Knack, etc. in Belgium There should be more though... The only problem might be that you need to pay if you want to read their texts. Yet, if you just google using fairly complex terms, you will probably end up finding some good ones. But maybe you ought to suggest a topic that you want to read about, and we can give more hints. Edited by JanKG on 27 December 2010 at 3:14am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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