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FAQ-NL: Dutch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 297 of 509 15 February 2011 at 11:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
> "I came to know Robert in 1993." > "I first got to know Robert in 1993." To me, both of these imply more than just meeting. To me, both imply getting to know Robert reasonably well. And there seems to be the implication that the "knowing" continued for a considerable time or even until today. To me, both are very close in meaning. I may have met Robert earlier but I really started to get to know him much better in 1993.
I think getting to know Columbus, or vice-versa, has a definite negative connotation here. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5765 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 298 of 509 16 February 2011 at 9:37am | IP Logged | |||||
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Get to know/ Come to know: I see, I thought they would have been different. But interesting to learn that they can be taken to (...) mean quite literally what they seem to express. I think it might be more casual with us: we met and talked for a while, might be enough, though basically the meaning is the same as yours.
Columbus: is the connotation part of the meaning of the word? I don't think so (only the context allows us to interpret it negatively), or is it? I am not sure I understand... Edited by JanKG on 16 February 2011 at 11:27am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 299 of 509 16 February 2011 at 11:11am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think what Tommus said was correct, "leren kennen" does mean something deeper than simply meeting someone. It implies that you got to know their personality, learnt something about their life, maybe became friends or at least acquaintances, etc. If you merely shook hands with Robert at a party in 1993, you would use "ontmoeten".
I don't think the Columbus sentence necessarily has a negative connotation. I think they simply mean to convey that he learnt of their existence but the use of "leren kennen" does imply something positive. It seems to suggest that he immersed himself in the culture of these people in some way and that he got to know them, and I'm not sure how true this actually is. Edited by ReneeMona on 16 February 2011 at 11:11am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 300 of 509 16 February 2011 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
Interesting comments, Renee and Jan. I automatically associate Columbus with the terrible impact he and those who followed had on huge numbers of the indigenous peoples of the region, virtually wiping out populations. The Arawak people were treated inhumanely and were destroyed. Disease and cruelty annihilated perhaps 70% or more of the millions of native people of the Caribbean, Central and South America, and destroyed civilizations. Google Columbus and genocide. So "leren kennen" in this context does not have a positive connotation for me. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5765 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 301 of 509 16 February 2011 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I see, but then I would not use that expression, except when you add "als ...". "Ik heb iemand leren als een ..." is generally positive (I think Renee will agree), except when you add the ominous "echt"...
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| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 302 of 509 16 February 2011 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The mentioning of Columbus and Indians brought up some dubious associations for me as well, which is why I thought it was interesting that they used "leren kennen" at all, since it only has positive associations for me. The thought went through my head that it was quite a euphemistic term to use considering the subject. Can you tell us about the context you found the sentence in, Tommus? It might be interesting to see what else they have to say about Columbus' encounter.
Jan, I agree that "Leren kennen als" does have a generally positive meaning but I would say it's used more in writing than in speaking. For instance, a letter of recommendation might say; "Wij hebben Tommus leren kennen als een zeer toegewijde en leergierige leerling" ;-) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 303 of 509 17 February 2011 at 12:25am | IP Logged | |||||
I didn't read it. I was Googling for 'leerde kennen' and it was the first page that Google found. It doesn't seem to have any further context. So this phrase may be a 'red herring", which is an expression a Nederlander should enjoy. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Welk_nieuw_volk_leerde_columbus_ke nnen To see if there were any negative connotation usages of 'leerde kennen', I searched for it together with 'ellende' and found, among others: "Daar leerde hij de sociale ellende van de stad goed kennen." http://www.onsamsterdam.nl/tijdschrift/jaargang-2010/25-numm er-4-april-2010.html?start=4 And I tried 'leerde kennen armoede' and found: "En dat was nog een eufemisme want Bellefroid leerde de diepste armoede kennen." http://www.bergenseschool.nl/edmond-bellefroid-documentatie. htm and: "In Algerije heeft waar hij geboren is, heeft hij niet alleen armoede leren kennen, maar ook het licht, de zon." http://www.havovwo.nl/vwo/vfa/bo/l%27etranger.pdf 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5765 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 304 of 509 17 February 2011 at 8:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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There is something funny going on here. First of all Renee's sentence is a perfect example of the use of 'leren kennen', but I am not overjoyed about the Google results. 'Armoede leren kennen': "nja", we'd say, maybe...
I think it will be safer to stick to our initial advice: only to be used in a positive sense (and then suggesting that other uses may be possible, but not commonly approved of). This reminds me of descriptive approaches to language, and normative ones. I don't consider it a red herring though but could it be due to automatic translation? BTW: how do you feel about the literal translation into English, Tommus? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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