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FAQ-NL: Dutch | ||
Tags: The Netherlands | Dutch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| koffiegast Diglot Newbie Netherlands Joined 5458 days ago 29 posts - 33 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 57 of 509 21 December 2009 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
While it may be the case that it involves devoicing it also becomes palatalized? z -> sj that is? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 58 of 509 25 December 2009 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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FAQ-NL: Word order?
One of the challenges for me in Dutch is word order of verbs. I suspect it is also a challenge for other language learners. I know that I need to spend more time studying the grammar associated with word order. I'm working on that. But I have a specific example here about a sentence I just read in the news. The issue is the location of the word "trong>gevallen". Below is an edited version of that sentence: Original: "De mensen zijn dinsdag tijdens zijn vacantie trong>gevallen op het plein in de stad door toedoen van een jongen uit het dorpje". Is this also correct? "De mensen zijn dinsdag op het plein in de stad tijdens zijn vacantie trong>gevallen door toedoen van een jongen uit het dorpje". I assume this is not correct because "door toedoen van een jongen uit het dorpje" is a separate clause. Is this version definitely wrong? "De mensen zijn dinsdag op het plein in de stad tijdens zijn vacantie door toedoen van een jongen uit het dorpje trong>gevallen". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| koffiegast Diglot Newbie Netherlands Joined 5458 days ago 29 posts - 33 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 59 of 509 25 December 2009 at 6:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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What is the context? I don't really understand the sentence this way. "Zijn vacantie", who's ? Because zijn can't refer to 'de mensen'.
But, I think all three sentences are fine. You could say it is a separate clause, but even then it comes down to the same point: 'Because of what did the people fell down' -> Door wat zijn de mensen gevallen?, the answer is obviously: 'door toedoen van een jongen uit het dorpje'. "Op het plein in de stad tijdens zijn vacantie" refers to the location and the time. Check out: http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=WordOrder.00 Only in some sentences you have to put the verb at the end (like the example on the page I just linked) The third (with gevallen at the end) is OK, but I doubt any person will say such a long sentence with the verb as last. Original and the 'also correct' seem more natural. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 60 of 509 25 December 2009 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
OK. That is an editing error when I changed the original a bit. 'zijn' should be 'hun'. Thanks for the comments and the link. I'll work some more on grammar and word order. I appreciate the comments. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 61 of 509 29 December 2009 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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FAQ-NL: Difference between 'ongeluk' and 'ongeval'?
Both seem to be used in news reports about various kinds of accidents. I haven't been able to determine if one word is generally used for some kinds of accidents and the other for different kinds of accidents. I think 'ongeluk' is more common for car accidents and maybe 'ongeval' is more used for personal accidents. Unfortunately, the words will be used quite a bit to report the results of the 'jaarwisseling' and the 'vuurwerken' that more resembles WW III than New Years Eve celebrations. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5845 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 62 of 509 29 December 2009 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
To answer your vocabulary question I will quote my "Van Dale Handwoordenboek Nederlands": 1. het ongeluk = - ongunstige omstandigheden (unfavourable circumstances) - ongunstige toestand (unfavourable situation) - ongunstig geval (unfavourable fact) - (accident) 2. het ongeval = - ongeluk in the meaning of (accident) My Dutch-English dictionary "Ster Woordenboek" says: 1. ongeluk = - misfortune or accident 2. ongeval = - only accident CONCLUSION: So "ongeluk" has a broader meaning than "ongeval". Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 29 December 2009 at 8:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5695 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 63 of 509 29 December 2009 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I looked up Wikipedia, although I'm dutch-speaking. It seems, and so I think it's the inverse of what you write:
"ongeval" is more for accidents. The word "ongeluk" has a broader meaning. Every "ongeval" of course is an "ongeluk", i.e. bad luck. But an "ongeluk" is not always an "ongeval". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| koffiegast Diglot Newbie Netherlands Joined 5458 days ago 29 posts - 33 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 64 of 509 03 January 2010 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Good question, I would say you can use them interchangeably.
1 person has voted this message useful |
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