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Chung at work / Chung pri práci
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Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log

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maxval
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Bulgaria
maxval.co.nr
Joined 5071 days ago
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Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew

Message 233 of 541

06 January 2013 at 9:11am | IP Logged

Chung wrote:

Question for maxval: How does the -ik suffix attached to the
comparative or superlative form add extra meaning? (e.g. Szeretem a
fiatalabbikat) My copy of HungarianBasicCourse-StudentText/Fsi-HungarianBasicCourse-Vo lume2-
StudentText.pdf#page=46">FSI Hungarian Basic Course, Vol. 2
notes that it's a colloquial way to indicate preference of the
comparative/superlative's associated noun but I don't get it.

Sorry, but I dont agree with the manual!

It is definitely not just colloquial.

In Hungarian grammars it is usually named "kiemelő jel". It has 3 main roles:
- converting cardinal numerals into ordinal numerals: e. g. harmadik,
- converting nouns to pronouns: e. g. másik,
- AND - this is main object of your question - indicating preference, mainly using
adjectives as nouns.

Van két kutyám. Egy kisebb és egy nagyobb.
A kisebbiket jobban szeretem. = A kisebb kutyát jobban szeretem.

(I have two dogs. One smaller and one bigger.
I prefer the smaller one. = I prefer the smaller dog.)

Edited by maxval on 06 January 2013 at 12:13pm
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sans-serif
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 4557 days ago
298 posts - 470 votes

Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish
Studies: Danish

Message 234 of 541

06 January 2013 at 10:49am | IP Logged

Chung wrote:

On se niin lapsellinen. = That's so childish.

Perhaps you just chose a more idiomatic translation, but this actually means something along the lines of: He sure is childish. / He's so childish. / How childish he is. 'Se' is the colloquial 'hän' here.

Edited by sans-serif on 06 January 2013 at 10:50am
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Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6595 days ago
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Message 235 of 541

06 January 2013 at 12:09pm | IP Logged

Chung wrote:

(From Viivi ja Wagner - Helsingin Sanomat via DashboardWidgets)

1) "Wagner is pretending to be ghost. That's so childish" (i.e. "Wagner is playing [the role of] a ghost")
2) "He's been oddly still for a long time."
3) Hi Viivi, I went to the pub. Wagner "...and I always fall for it."

leikkiä (leikin, leikki, leikkinyt) "to play" (intransitive)
kummitus (kummituksen, kummitusta, kummituksia) "ghost"
paikoillaan "in place, in position"
oudon "oddly, strangely"
mennä retkuun (menen retkuun, meni retkuun, mennyt retkuun) "to get fooled" (literally: "to go into the rags and tatters")

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

Question for Serpent: Is my translation of oudon from this comic strip correct? Even though it looks like the genitive singular of outo my spidey sense makes me think that it's supposed to be the instructive singular of outo and over time it's become used as an adverb even though it has the same form as the genitive singular.

Well, it's a structure that can be used with any adjective which makes sense, e.g. ihanan nuori. To me it's not that different from e.g. päivänselvä where it's clearly the genitive. It's easier to attach to words like paljon though: helvetin paljon, yllättävän monta... All the same thing, imo.

As for "that's so childish", yeah, this would be "on se niin lapsellista". only some really short basic words remain in the nominative in this structure: hyvä, kiva etc. I believe that's the same adjectives that get an -e before the comparative suffixes.

Edited by Serpent on 06 January 2013 at 12:13pm
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sans-serif
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 4557 days ago
298 posts - 470 votes

Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish
Studies: Danish

Message 236 of 541

06 January 2013 at 12:49pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

This is also how I understand it. Same with päivänselvä, yönmusta, piinkova, and so on. Reminds of a Rättö ja Lehtisalo song called Ihanan syyllinen pallokala. :-)

Serpent wrote:

only some really short basic words remain in the nominative in this structure: hyvä, kiva etc. I believe that's the same adjectives that get an -e before the comparative suffixes.

Heh, took me a while to understand what you were talking about. My puhekieli detector is giving me ambiguous signals about this... (EDIT2: I'm not sure what I was thinking here. Could be I reacted to the construction 'on se niin ADJEKTIIVI', which in my books is chiefly puhekieli. I'll have to think some more on this.)

EDIT: Adjusted the second quote to clarify, which part I was commenting on.

Edited by sans-serif on 06 January 2013 at 2:10pm
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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6595 days ago
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Message 237 of 541

06 January 2013 at 1:40pm | IP Logged

Well, the partitive is more commonly overused than underused?
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sans-serif
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 4557 days ago
298 posts - 470 votes

Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish
Studies: Danish

Message 238 of 541

06 January 2013 at 2:50pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

Well, the partitive is more commonly overused than underused?

By Finnish learners? Probably yes, though I'm not the best person to ask.

Here's what I arrived at after some more thought:
"On hyvä, että tulit." is clearly the only correct alternative. In formal writing, I'd prefer the partitive in every other case I can think of. When speaking, on the other hand, I'd probably never use a partitive in something like "Hauskaa, että pääsit tulemaan".

It could be I'm just trying to impose my internal logic on an inherently illogical entity here, but then again, isn't that what asiakieli is all about. The truth is, this is all a bit fuzzy to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if many other native speakers or even Kielitoimisto disagreed with me.

Edited by sans-serif on 06 January 2013 at 3:18pm
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
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Speaks: English*, French
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Message 239 of 541

06 January 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged

Kiitos kaikille selityksistä! / Köszönöm a magyarázatot!

About "That's so childish" versus "He's so childish", it's true that I have in mind idiomatic translations. Yet the difference between "That's so childish" and "He's so childish" is negligible to me, and my choice reflects what *I* am more likely (slight as the difference is) to say if I were in Viivi's position. If I were to say instead "He's so childish" in this situation I wouldn't do a double-take or correct myself mid-sentence.
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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6595 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes

Message 240 of 541

06 January 2013 at 5:42pm | IP Logged

sans-serif wrote:

Here's what I arrived at after some more thought:
"On hyvä, että tulit." is clearly the only correct alternative. In formal writing, I'd prefer the partitive in every other case I can think of. When speaking, on the other hand, I'd probably never use a partitive in something like "Hauskaa, että pääsit tulemaan".

Hauska is on the same list of exceptions, actually :D (hauskempi :)) As I said, it's all the core words, the short 2-syllable adjectives.

btw, is one supposed to be able to tell whether "iiiiihanaaaaa" really means ihana or ihanaa? :) This sort of words is also often stretched so perhaps this contributes to the confusion.

Edited by Serpent on 06 January 2013 at 5:45pm

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