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The role and usefulness of Irish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| boon Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 5968 days ago 91 posts - 177 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Mandarin, Latin | Message 9 of 162 27 March 2010 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Nice comment Teango, but not all Irish people feel the same way about Irish. It's certainly a pretty cool language, but I'm very fond of English too. Why not? It's been in this country for well over 800 years. We've had so many great writers who wrote in English.
Your post made reference to "selling out" and "media moguls". None of my grandparents spoke Irish. It meant precious little to them. Does that make them less Irish? I think a lot of the old Irish freedom fighters didn't care too much about the language. Let's not rewrite history. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| goosefrabbas Triglot Pro Member United States Joined 6177 days ago 393 posts - 475 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: German, Italian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 162 27 March 2010 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
From Wikipedia (emphasis in bold is mine): The Irish language has been a minority language since the 19th century. It is an important part of Irish nationalist identity. A combination of the introduction of a primary education system (the 'National Schools'), in which Irish was prohibited until 1871 and only English taught by order of the British government, and the Great Famine (An Gorta Mór) which hit a disproportionately high number of Irish speakers (who lived in the poorer areas heavily hit by famine deaths and emigration), hastened its rapid decline. Irish political leaders, such as Daniel O'Connell (Domhnall Ó Conaill), too were critical of the language, seeing it as 'backward', with English the language of the future. The National Schools run by the Roman Catholic Church discouraged its use until about 1890. This was because most economic opportunity for most Irish people arose at that time within the United States of America and the British Empire, which both used English. Contemporary reports spoke of Irish-speaking parents actively discouraging their children from speaking the language, and encouraging the use of English instead. This practice continued long after independence, as the stigma of speaking Irish remained very strong. Despite the policy of successive Irish governments to promote the language the decline in the number of native speakers (language shift) within the Gaeltacht has accelerated although the number of those elsewhere in the country able to speak it (as a second language) has increased albeit not to the extent that many hoped. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Adrean TAC 2010 Winner Senior Member France adrean83.wordpress.c Joined 5977 days ago 348 posts - 411 votes Speaks: FrenchC1 | Message 11 of 162 27 March 2010 at 11:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think that the story of Irish language revival is a very old one. People do learn it in schools. There is a gaelic free to air channel, even an Irish soap. Writers are given grants to write books which very very few people buy. T.V presenters incorporate a little from time to time to say hello and goodbye.
It's a very old question, even Joyce in 'a portrait of an artist as a young man' dimissed the idea of reviving the Irish language on a personal level which was 100 years ago. In reality it's simply not going to happen.
I think that people are still reeling and sobering from the affects of the Celtic Tiger. Ireland is experiencing the backlash of overspending and over zealous bankers. Generally I don't think the Irish look back so fondly on the Celtic Tiger, they will be paying for the mistakes made for many years to come. On a side note I think that it is really a positive thing to continue to learn the language in school. Not for speaking on a practical level but for keeping that element of culture alive. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5820 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 12 of 162 27 March 2010 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And herein lies the problem. Most of the world says "[i[I am Xish, so being Xish means being like me." Because of this, many Irish people disregard the Irish language as unIrish, because they don't speak it. It therefore becomes irrelevant in their eyes. But you cannot judge a language by who doesn't speak it, only by who does. If I fall in love with a woman, I will learn her language in order to show her how I feel. If you disregard a language off-hand, you are expressing a complete lack of any feeling towards the speakers. People in bilingual countries (notably Wales, Ireland and Scotland) have to recognise that speakers of other indigenous languages are no threat to their own identity. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5575 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 13 of 162 28 March 2010 at 12:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Which reminds me of something I read about the situation of Quechua as native language in Peru. As far as I can recall, they compared two studies that were made within a short time span (about 5 years), and which showed a surprising difference in the number of native speakers between those two studies. I think the conclusion was that the participants were asked to decide between Spanish and Quechua as native language, even though the majority of them grew up in a bilingual environment. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5365 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 14 of 162 28 March 2010 at 1:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Despite the Gaelic language being banned by the British Penal Laws of 1695, Irish continued to be the predominant language in Ireland well up until the 1850s. After the potato famine and mass forced evictions where up to 2.5 million people are estimated to have been lost, and the increase in military action against the starving Irish people, anyone speaking or teaching Irish faced being thrown into jail and even execution. Recalling the words of a young Irish girl on the Internet recently:
"It was never the Irish's choice to throw off their language, but it was forced on them and eventually just became the norm. It's really sad. I am Irish and can barely speak my own language. I do like the English language, and I am glad I am fluent in it, but I'd love to be able speak fluent Irish as well." The story of Ireland is a story of hope, even in the bleakest hours of humanity. Irishmen and Irishwomen and all their descendants who breath today, be they one of the forty million American citizens claiming Irish ancestry, or those living in Australia, UK or any of the many other far-flung parts of the world, can stand proud in their heritage, all of it, the Irish language included. It defines who they are, it shapes their destiny, and somewhere lying beneath the surface of their own personal melodies like a reflection in the water and interwoven finely in their Gaelic and Hiberno-English words, lies a message of hope for all. A language is as much a part of her people as the blood that sings in her veins. No, it's more than that, it's part of that which pumps and labours in its name. I'm sad that so many Irish seem to reject the Irish language and the culture that has grown within her, what my own grandparents and their ancestors before them used to whisper to their children and grand-children in secret as that "lily fair". It's so very true, we're not here to rewrite history; but a knowledge of our history and how we got here can sometimes help write a better future. Here's a link to the Irish Potato Famine for members of our forum who would like to learn more, and I leave you with a traditional Irish song originally written in the Irish language: Where Lagan stream sings lullaby, There blows a lily fair, The twilight's gleam is in her eye The night is on her hair. And like a love-sick Leánnan Sí, She hath my heart in thrall. No life I own, nor liberty, For love is lord of all. And oft' times when the beetle's horn Hath lulled the eve to sleep, I steal unto her shieling lorn And thru the dooring peep. There on the cricket's singing stone, She spares the bogwood fire, And hums in sweet soft undertones The song of heart's desire. "My Lagan Love is a traditional Irish song...written during a time in Irish history when it was forbidden to write openly about Ireland, or express love, devotion, or nationalism towards the country. The Irish had decided to write songs that indirectly would reference their love for their mother country; they would refer to Ireland as a beautiful woman. Hence, "My Lagan Love" speaks erotically and poetically about a beloved woman which is also a beloved homeland. "Lagan" means something one throws away in hopes that it will return." [source: My Lagan Love, Wikipedia] Edited by Teango on 28 March 2010 at 3:45am 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| boon Diglot Groupie Ireland Joined 5968 days ago 91 posts - 177 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Mandarin, Latin | Message 15 of 162 29 March 2010 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, this thread has encouraged me to order an Irish grammar book on Amazon! Haha, I'll let you know how I get on.
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| Johntm Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5231 days ago 616 posts - 725 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 16 of 162 30 March 2010 at 9:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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