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Germans can’t learn Schweitzerdeutsch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| cmj Octoglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5130 days ago 58 posts - 191 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Arabic (classical), Latin, Italian | Message 9 of 27 26 June 2010 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | ||
This is true to an extent, but Swiss Germans generally dislike speaking Hochdeutsch in most contexts. If you address someone in German, chances are they will answer you in Swiss German. It's kind of neat, because it means you basically converse in two languages: they speak Swiss German and you speak Hochdeutsch. The idea is basically that if you live in Switzerland, you should understand the language and since there is already a fair amount of animosity towards the Germans, most people are unwilling to make any extra effort to help them out. The situation is a little different with non-German-speaking foreigners, but even there it's complicated. Since I didn't understand Swiss German when I arrived, people would sometimes switch to Hochdeutsch, but they would almost always forget themselves and slip right back into Swiss German. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| RogerK Triglot Groupie Austria Joined 4867 days ago 92 posts - 181 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian Studies: Portuguese | Message 10 of 27 15 January 2011 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | ||
I had a similar problem when I arrived in Vorarlberg many years ago. I had tried to learn a little German before I came here but once I arrived the first thing I learnt was that the locals didn't speak German as such. Now my German is quite good, occasinally I say a few words in dialect but it is still a foreign language for me. To clear that up, I understand what everyone is saying but I can only repeat what they have said in High German. Also I find it fun to try to understand the various dialects and accents. And yes, usually we are conversing in two languages at the same time. With both parties understanding each other perfectly. Edited by RogerK on 15 January 2011 at 5:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| RogerK Triglot Groupie Austria Joined 4867 days ago 92 posts - 181 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian Studies: Portuguese | Message 11 of 27 15 January 2011 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||
You might be under estimating your abilities. Schweizerdeutsch is quite different but with a little listening practice you'd begin to comprehend what the Swiss were saying. I have never picked up a Dutch book but to my ear it is a mixture between German and a little English with some other stuff thrown in. If I listen to two Dutch people conversing often I'll know what they are talking about because many words are very similar to German. I may even learn a little Dutch one day because it could be a cheap language for me to learn. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5803 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 12 of 27 16 January 2011 at 12:38am | IP Logged | ||
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There isn't a single "Swiss German". Linguistically, it's a range of dialects within the Alemannic family. The variety spoken in Basel has more in common with Alsatian than the varieties in the west of the country.
Alemannic dialects are generally referred to as dialects of German, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch and is mostly down to the fact that Hochsdeutsch is used as a written standard in most of the Alemannic-speaking areas. The second problem that Swiss German has is that even the Swiss tell you that it's impossible to learn because every valley has its own dialect. I haven't tried myself yet, but I think they're making a problem where there is none. Every language has variation, but underlying that there is a common structural core, and if you don't waste time on superficial items that change from area to area, you can focus on that core. What do I mean? Consider English: you could teach "how are you?" or "how's things?" or "what's up"...[etc]. But everyone says it differently, and there really is no way for a teacher to know what the learner's going to need. And it will also be quite easy for the learner to pick up in the destination country. So it's a matter of finding the common features and teaching them. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| RogerK Triglot Groupie Austria Joined 4867 days ago 92 posts - 181 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian Studies: Portuguese | Message 13 of 27 16 January 2011 at 10:24am | IP Logged | ||
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This may not be Schwitzerdütsch but here is a link to Vorarlbergerisch 'Red Ghörig!' which will give you a little idea of how different the words can be between German and some of the dialects.
http://redghoerig.lampert.cc/index_1.htm Edited by RogerK on 16 January 2011 at 5:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5273 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 14 of 27 16 January 2011 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's interesting to hear people talk about dialects. Being native in understanding Stadarddeutsch (Hochdeutsch), I
really don't have trouble understanding when Northerners talk dialect (it's becoming rarer and rarer as time goes on as Low German dialects aren't as prevalent like the Southern/High dialects). Most of this is due to how my Grandpa spoke to me. He would talk to me in High German because he wanted to me to have an advantage with the Standard instead of being inhibited by learning dialect first (in my opinion he is just as fluent and proficient in both). However, when I was about 3 or 4, he had some of his friends from his old city, who immigrated soon after him, come over. He would usually talk to them in dialect, and I would at first ask them why they were speaking so strangely, and he would say they were speaking their "adult language" to discourage me from using it. From this constant exposure, I acquired a love and an ear for Low German dialects. I can't really speak any, but I can understand much of what is being said as if it were Hochdeutsch. Unfortunately I can't say the same for Swiss dialects, which I can't understand very well. Most German speakers know how the Swiss speak, and it is a simple matter of mimicking it, however, as written here, it would be like an American trying to speak Scots or Cockney. I think for me, I would be able to formally learn it, since I don't know "how a Swiss person speaks", because of the simple matter I have not been at all exposed to Swiss dialect, and unlike a regular German person, I don't know the stereotypical way of talking like a Swiss. I somewhat know how to talk Standarddeutsch with a Swiss akzent, however I generally have a lot of trouble. So I think it's mostly exposure (and after listening to a few hours of a Swiss German podcast or something I'm sure I'll have no trouble understanding a certain dialect :). If you're a German who has never before been exposed to Swiss German, it would still be like the American speaking Scots situation, it's just not natural. Usually just speaking to the Swiss in Standarddeutsch and understanding their response in Swiss is enough and frankly what most Germans (well myself and Germans I know) do :).
You are correct in the fact that there isn't a single SPOKEN Swiss German, but the accent, cadence, and common words between the dialects are what most Germans think of as "Swiss", and that is therefore what they mimic. I think a program involving the study and documenting of the different dialects across Switzerland would be a fascinating study. In regards to your Alsatian comment, there is also a lot of French influence in dialects that come from, for example, Alsace, and Swiss cantons situated more towards the French speaking region of Switzerland. It's just a fascinating mix. Und warum ist das nicht auf Deutsch :)?? Edit: BTW, I found a great video of Roger Federer speaking Swiss German. It has Hochdeutsch subtitles so you can somewhat see the differences: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA_Z3Yb_2-4 Edited by ruskivyetr on 16 January 2011 at 5:42pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| cmj Octoglot Groupie Switzerland Joined 5130 days ago 58 posts - 191 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Arabic (classical), Latin, Italian | Message 15 of 27 17 January 2011 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | ||
It's true that "Swiss German" is a dialect continuum more than a language, but this isn't a particularly large obstacle since almost all of the dialects are mutually intelligible (although some are very hard to understand even for other Swiss Germans, like that of Valais). In practice, the dialect of Zürich is the standard form of the language, being widely spoken and widely understood. It is this form that is generally found in textbooks for foreign learners, for example. Also, from what I've read the Zürich and Bern dialects have been steadily expanding in the last decades, bringing about a certain decrease in linguistic diversity. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Kisfroccs Bilingual Pentaglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 5201 days ago 388 posts - 549 votes Speaks: French*, German*, EnglishC1, Swiss-German, Hungarian Studies: Italian, Serbo-Croatian | Message 16 of 27 19 January 2011 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi everyone !
My second mothertongue is German (and French) and I have been living all my life in the french speaking part of Switzerland. Until last year, I hadn't been so exposed to Swissgerman and could hardly understand it at all (when I went to Bern doing some Shopping I couldn't even understand "mütchli", "grüezi", "weggli" "grüesäch" and so on - I felt like in another country). Last year I choose to attend bilingual classes German/French and of course, there came the Schwiitzerdütsch along :). So, with daily exposure it took me 2 month, I would say, to understand at 99% what they were saying. Today, a year after, I could understand "university" courses (in brackets because they should be in German, but there are always some which are in Swissgerman). I can speak a bit, but I have no need to speak it right now, because where I live, it's mainly French which is used. So, it's not so difficult - but I do not speak it actively. It's true that Swiss people tend to hold some resentment against German, but that's mainly political (problem with acceptance of immigration). I have personnaly some slight bad experience with speaking German mixed Swissgerman with an NRW (Nordrein Westfahlen) accent. People tend to be less respectful and polite (especially in Bern), and that annoyed me (if I said "merci" with an French accent, they were suddenly friendlier ;p). But I know that a lot a German people tend to think that Switzerland is " a little Germany" which is not true. We have slight different culture, and that create these frictions. Kisfröccs BTW : I'm suisse romande ;). And we like to taunt our Swissgerman : Marie-Thérèse Porchet, La leçon de géographie :D. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVtwMi5qJEw&feature=related The guy speak German with an swiss accent. The rest speaks Swissgerman It's not an interesting video : but here the German speaker can see if they understand :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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