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Passive se or impersonal se? - Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5613 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes  Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 25 of 60 07 August 2010 at 1:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think I mentioned it also that this is a case of double object construction which also happens in Greek and some Slavic languages, if you google it.
This works very much like subject-verb agreement where the person of the subject is indicated in the conjugation of the verb, thus the subject can be dropped. But there are instances where the verb conjugation is syncretic or the subject needs to be stressed, disambiguated, or made explicit where the subject is not dropped. This happens here as well, but only that this is an object. Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 07 August 2010 at 1:19am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Raчraч Ŋuɲa Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5613 days ago 154 posts - 233 votes Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese | Message 26 of 60 07 August 2010 at 1:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Let's look at the characteristics. (1) The verb form doesn't help since in third person singular both impersonal "se" and mediopassive "se" are identical. (2) there is no preposition marking the noun phrase since its also inanimate. (3) "puede considerar" seems like a transitive, so no help as well. Impersonal "se" can accompany both transitive and intransitive verbs provided there is an implied human agent, while mediopassive "se" only goes with transitive verbs. (4) But the presence of the "la" for double object construction makes the noun phrase an object since they agree in gender and number. And since the verb in a mediopassive "se" agrees with the subject, this is therefore an impersonal "se". This is the reason I think why "la" is needed to disambiguate. Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 07 August 2010 at 1:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| guesto Groupie Australia Joined 5536 days ago 76 posts - 118 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 27 of 60 07 August 2010 at 2:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think 'la' is referring to Extremadura. Is it a stand alone sentence or did you take it from a passage, in which case Extremadura would be implied from previous sentences? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 28 of 60 08 August 2010 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Well, it's nice to see to what lengths you guys go to analyze the phrase, but let's try and keep it simple:
¿Can it be 'passive'? As someone else said, 'passive voice' means someone (the DO: direct object of the corresponding phrase in the active voice) is the subject, and that same someone is being [whatever]ed. Easy to spot. So let's check for past participles... none, ergo it is NOT passive, by the very definition. So, it should be "impersonal". Shall we check, just in case? Who is the subject? The verb "Puede" is in the 3rd person, singular, the subject might be Extremadura... ok, wait a minute, your grammar is fine, but let's check the meanings... can a region do something like 'consider things'? So it must be someone else. But who? Anyone who thinks about the region, really. Oh. So... yes, it's impersonal! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6898 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 29 of 60 08 August 2010 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No-one is suggesting this is an example of the passive form constructed by ser + past participle + agent. However, there has been mention of the passive se which seems to be confusing some people. Edited by Andy E on 08 August 2010 at 9:59pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| plaidchuck Diglot Groupie United States facebook.com/plaidchRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5100 days ago 71 posts - 93 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 30 of 60 08 August 2010 at 11:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I was the OP and I believe the consensus here and on WR was that it's an impersonal form, since someone out there is able to consider it "a land of transition". The real question came to be whether the "la" made any sense (and many native speakers have said it doesn't)..
If you check my WR post there is quite a lengthy discussion, of whether the "la" makes any sense at all (or is it laísmo), whether it should be "le" (and if that use is leísmo), etc.. Myself I've come to a couple of conclusions about it: a.) It's impersonal b.) If it seems unusual it may be just that writer's sense of style (or something particular to the region of Spain they are from) c.) Not to be too worried about it. I used to fret about such grammar peculiarities. Now however instead of worrying about them I adapt to them, kind of "letting myself go". I think when you do this the language you are learning comes more "alive" and this is when you make a real push towards fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 31 of 60 08 August 2010 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, the original poster said
He then said
Anyway, I'd like to ask Plaidchuck how he came to the conclusion that "RAE and my Butt and Benjamin's Grammar [...] seem to imply in this case the impersonal wouldn't be used when you assign a DO pronoun (la) to an inanimate object" because this is clearly not true, I'm doing it right now: A una triste cosa inanimada (mi cosa, tu cosa, nuestra cosa) puede hacérsele lo que uno quiera, es decir, lo que se quiera: comprarla, venderla, pasarla por la picadora... or, ¿Qué se puede hacer con una cosa inanimada? Se la puede uno comer, se la puede enterrar, ponerla en una vitrina, or whatever else you might think of... i.e. could you Plaidchuck please quote the original material that made you think this couldn't be done? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| plaidchuck Diglot Groupie United States facebook.com/plaidchRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5100 days ago 71 posts - 93 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 32 of 60 08 August 2010 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Good point, to be honest I must have been confused and I'm not sure quite what I was referencing there. Maybe the fact that it says "le" is usually used in this case. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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