Passive se or impersonal se? - Spanish (Questions About Your Target Languages) Language Learning Forum

Passive se or impersonal se? - Spanish
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Andy E
Triglot
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United Kingdom
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1651 posts - 1939 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish, French

Message 57 of 60

12 August 2010 at 9:03am | IP Logged

Personally, I'd like some feedback on the sentences tractor provided below with the variation that the pronominal use is optional i.e. with and without the se:

(Usted) puede considerar(se) Extremadura una tierra de transición.
Puede considerár(se)la una tierra de transición.

Puedes considerar(te) Extremadura una tierra de transicón.
Puedes considerár(te)la una tierra de transición.

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Raчraч Ŋuɲa
Triglot
Senior Member
New Zealand
Joined 5613 days ago
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Speaks: Bikol languages*, Tagalog, English^C1
Studies: Spanish, Russian, Japanese

Message 58 of 60

13 September 2010 at 2:08pm | IP Logged

Ok, I now retract my earlier assumption that "la" refers to "una tierra de transición",
that the verb in the sentence is ditransitive, and that this is a double object
construction. I now agree that "la" refers to Extremadura, and the verb is a complex
monotransitive. I have the mistaken view earlier that all "se" are pronominal because I
read somewhere that the passive and impersonal se are derived from the reflexive se, so
all "se" must refer to an IO.

But I still think that this is an impersonal "se", and "Puede considerársela una tierra
de transición" may be translated as "One is able to consider it ("la" - Extremadura) a
land of transition." I think "la" is not redundant but needed so that one is not left
wondering what one is able to consider as "una tierra de transición". Tractor is in the
right tract by saying "Since yesterday I've consulted Manuel Seco's Gramática
esencial del español again, and he clearly states that "considerar" is a transitive
verb taking a direct object and an object predicative.". Therefore, "la" is a
requirement because an impersonal "se" needs a direct object.

It is not reflexive "se" because, as mrwarper said, regions can't consider things about
themselves, so with or without the "la" the sentence doesn't make sense.

It's not mediopassive "se" either because "la" is there, a DO. As furrykef said,
"Passive "se" is when "se" replaces the direct object."

And highly unlikely as pronominal "se" because it would mean there's an IO ("se"), a DO
("la") and a subject. I would be hard pressed identifying the IO, DO and the subject
correctly as distinct entities, which I had been doing in the earlier posts.

And yes, the translation is dodgy.

Edited by Raчraч Ŋuɲa on 13 September 2010 at 10:24pm
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patuco
Diglot
Moderator
Gibraltar
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Speaks: Spanish, English*
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Message 59 of 60

16 September 2010 at 11:20pm | IP Logged

Andy E wrote:

Andy, sorry for the delay but I've just noticed your post :)

I'd consider the following possibilities reasonable:

Usted puede considerarla una tierra de transición.
Usted puede considerar (a) Extremadura (como) una tierra de transición.
Se puede considerar (a) (Extremadura) (como) una tierra de transición. (words in brackets can be omitted if required)
Puede considerarse una tierra de transición.

I can't think of any more variations at the moment.
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Agustín76
Newbie
Argentina
Joined 4975 days ago
11 posts - 14 votes
Speaks: English

Message 60 of 60

19 September 2010 at 11:34am | IP Logged

guesto wrote:

So is the sentence "se puede considerarla una tierra de transición" wrong? Can a native speaker confirm it?

Soy de Argentina. Respecto a la duda gramatical que tienen, creo que se están ahogando en un vaso de agua, juas! O si prefieren, están hilando muy fino.

Invento un ejemplo:
Extremadura, ubicada en el sudeste de España,ha logrado convertirse en uno de los mayores mercados de capitales a nivel mundial y PUEDE CONSIDERÁRSELA UNA TIERRA DE TRANSICIÓN para las empresas que busquen colocar su marca en Europa.

"Y PUEDE SER CONSIDERADA UNA TIERRA DE TRANSICIÓN" (ésta es la única variación que yo usaría).

"PUEDE CONSIDERARSE TIERRA DE TRANSICIÓN" (tiene un tinte literario, lo usaría pero queda un poco pomposo el texto)

"PUEDE CONSIDERARSE UNA TIERRA DE TRANSICIÓN" Así no. Acá habría que agregarle algo más: "puede considerarse QUE ES una tierra de transición" o sino "puede considerarse QUE HA SURGIDO COMO una tierra de transición"

"Y PUEDE CONSIDERÁRSELE UNA TIERRA DE TRANSICIÓN" (siendo nativo de Argentina jamás usaría "considerársele", pero igual y más allá de las reglas gramaticales que quieran usar, entendería la oración.

SE PUEDE CONSIDERARLA, SE PUEDE COMPRARLA EN CUOTAS, SE PUEDE AJUSTARLA HASTA QUE QUEDE FIRME. Son frases válidas, pero de charla coloquial, de gente con poca educación formal.

Lo correcto sería:
ES POSIBLE CONSIDERARLA
SERÍA ÚTIL COMPRARLA EN CUOTAS / VAMOS A TENER QUE COMPRARLA EN CUOTAS
PODEMOS AJUSTARLA HASTA QUE QUEDE FIRME / VAMOS A TENER QUE AJUSTARLA HASTA QUE QUEDE FIRME

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