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Russian is past, Chinese is future? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6972 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes  7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 97 of 150 28 July 2006 at 5:05am | IP Logged | ||||||||
We had this discussion a while back and as I remember the conclusion reached was that it would probably be possible to replace the characters with pinyin (for modern chinese that is ). The reason being that if a sentence can be understood when spoken it can also be represented in pinyin. So anything written that can be understood when read aloud would be able to be written down in pinyin. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| delectric Diglot Senior Member China Joined 6970 days ago 608 posts - 733 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: German | Message 98 of 150 28 July 2006 at 11:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Characters can really be seen as superior to an alphabet for many reasons. Don't think that just because something is easier to learn it's superior.
The Chinese characters unite various languages with one written style. Who knows perhaps Europe too would be united if each country could understand each others various ideas. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6732 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 99 of 150 28 July 2006 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It is only one of the factors, but since time is valuable commodity, both for an individual and for society as a whole, it is an important factor. Of course, what's already there is there - there would a major cost to a society to change its writing system. On the other hand, a tribe without any writing that had decided to establish a writing system for their language would probably opt for an alphabet as a quicker solution. Also, various peoples did switch from hyeroglyphic writing to alphabets at various times in history. Has anyone ever gone the other way? Would it be as easy or harder to run an anti-literacy program for adults (if it were needed) in China versus India? It would also be interesting to ask tangential questions and look into the history of mathematics in China. Did they ever develop algebra on their own? A positional number system? Would the first programming language ever be created in a society without an alphabet? Edited by frenkeld on 28 July 2006 at 10:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6557 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 100 of 150 29 July 2006 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The ancient Chinese did indeed do advanced algebra, and combinatorial
mathematics was probably invented in China first. The Chinese were the first to have a decimal system for numbers, dating back to the second millennium B.C. The Chinese invented negative numbers, linear algebra, and the binomial theorem. In the fifth century, a Chinese mathematician calculated pi to 7 places. The feat was unmatched by other countries for almost 1000 years. There's no logical reason you couldn't have a programming language without an alphabet. Ideograms and logograms will do just fine for instructions and variables. Logographic writing systems may demand somewhat more effort to learn, but they are also in some ways more advanced, giving the writer more flexibility of expression. The Japanese could easily write their entire language in kana, but they prefer kanji for most words. Japanese written in kanji is easier and faster to read, and allows for double entendres that could not be expressed with just an alphabet. Edited by Captain Haddock on 29 July 2006 at 1:18am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6732 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 101 of 150 29 July 2006 at 11:46am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This is interesting information. I've heard, of course, about their technological achievements (paper, gunpowder, rocketry, compass(?), etc.), and a bit about the astronomical ones, but haven't thought about the mathematics. I've heard quite a few conflicting claims about the invention of the decimal system - could you recommend a book to read up on the history of Chinese mathematics? Where did you find this specific information (about the decimal number system)?
How much more is "somewhat more"? How much extra time does an adult foreign learner need for Chinese or Japanese just due to their having a pictograph writing system? The same question can be asked about native schoolchildren - how many extra school hours are spent on mastering the more complex writing system? Actually, I first got curious about these issues after a conversation with my wife's Japanese colleague. He feels it's a hindrance to society to have a writing system that takes so much additional effort to master in school.
So, these double entendres can't even be spoken? One last question: how inflecting are the grammars of Mandarin and Japanese? How are these inflections, if any, handled by pictographs? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 6804 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 102 of 150 29 July 2006 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I appears to me that this doesn't seem to have affected Japan's economy that much. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| lady_skywalker Triglot Senior Member Netherlands aspiringpolyglotblog Joined 6679 days ago 909 posts - 942 votes Speaks: Spanish, English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, French, Dutch, Italian | Message 103 of 150 29 July 2006 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Or the literacy rate. I believe Japan has one of the highest literacy rates in the world. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6732 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 104 of 150 29 July 2006 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well, you'd have to take this up with the Japanese guy who said this. His comments mostly served to make me aware of the issue, whatever the merit of his viewpoint. (As a person, he is a bit of a maverick, albeit an educated one.) Edited by frenkeld on 30 July 2006 at 2:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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