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Russian Read&Speak - TAC 2013 Team Mir | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4636 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 57 of 142 25 March 2013 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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If the rules are presented logically, genitive plural isn't that bad, but you're right, it's the most complicated case for nouns. The problem is that the endings in the genitive plural rather depend on phonology than on the gender of the noun. That's why the endings don't fit into the traditional classification of declination paradigms:
-ов: Masculine nouns ending in a hard consonant -ев: Masculine nouns ending in -й (and, because of spelling rules, -ц) -ей: Masculine nouns ending in a soft consonant (-ь) or a sibilant (ж, ч, ш, щ) Feminine nouns ending in a soft consonant (-ь) Neuter nouns ending in -е -Ø: Feminine nouns ending in -а/-я Neuter nouns ending in -о The zero-ending group may have orthographical adaptions (-ь/-й) and occasional fleeting vowels. And then there are exceptions like братьев. Edited by Josquin on 25 March 2013 at 4:02pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4499 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 58 of 142 25 March 2013 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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There's also -ий -> событий (событие, "event")
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| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4636 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 59 of 142 25 March 2013 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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I knew I had forgotten something... ;)
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4499 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 60 of 142 25 March 2013 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yeah, and afaik it's also for nouns in ия - станций
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| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4848 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 61 of 142 25 March 2013 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | ||
You forgot masculine nouns with the zero ending. There are quite a lot of words like that, but you probably include them into multiple exceptions. But событий, and станций have zero endings, so your list included them (you just forgot about the zero ending of neutre nouns on ие or ье). Edited by Марк on 25 March 2013 at 6:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4636 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 62 of 142 25 March 2013 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, -ия was already covered by my category "zero ending", because the nouns in -ия behave the same way as all the other nouns in -я: There is no ending, but the remaining soft final sound has to be indicated by either -ь (after consonant) or -й (after vowel). However, it's true my scheme only covers the "regular" declinations. There are severaly exceptions, the most common of which are "irregular" nouns like время (времён) or англичанин (англичан). My reference grammar states some weirder exceptions though, which contradict the above rules, but I haven't mastered these yet. Edited by Josquin on 25 March 2013 at 6:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4848 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 63 of 142 26 March 2013 at 10:42am | IP Logged | ||
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The number of irregularities depends on whether we form the gen. pl. from the nom. sing.
or the nom. pl. For example the word сосед has the gen pl. соседей, which is irregular, but if we look at the nom pl. - соседи, then it becomes regular. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 4958 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 64 of 142 26 March 2013 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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As this is my log with most replies and Russian is directly involved, I thought I would address the issue here:
I am foreseeing a trip to Aruba in September. It's not certain yet, but it's quite likely. It might be a 1-week trip. I had Papiamento on my wish list prior to that, in fact I'd start it after Estonian (which means that I'd have to reach a B1 level in both Norwegian and Georgian before i'd start Papiamento). Papiamento a language I've always been fascinated with and I'd like to take the most out of the opportunity, in the sense of being able to talk in Papiamento in an active way, because just learning to recognize the Portuguese and English cognates isn't something you need a trip for. Therefore, as I am about to decide where I am going to in September, I feel I should start asap. I'm not sure I could reach a tourist conversational level in less than six months, but I'd forever regret not trying. It's an accesible foreign language after all, and I'd really like to take the chance and be able to actually talk in the language when I go there. I could visit Paris while my French was still low B1 and it only got better after that, I got motivated to study more and more. So, I think a low B1 in Papiamento in Aruba would be great (as long as I forced the Papiamento into the conversation, since people speak English, Spanish and sometimes even Portuguese there). I also want to talk my fiancée into learning the basics of a foreign language and how that can be fun. The problem, as usual, is mental constraints. I do have time for half an hour Papiamento everyday, or even an hour, but I'm not sure if my brain can take more. Here's my schedule as of today: Chinese - Peng's Fun with Chinese Vocabulary (2 pages a day) Méthode 90 Chinois reviewing one lesson a day, now lesson 25 (i've been through the whole book last year) Russian - Assimil Russian without toil, one lesson a day Georgian - a grammar book (in German), about 4 pages a day, alternating with exercises The Little Prince, one chapter a day, reading in parallel in French Norwegian - teach Yourself Norwegian 1944, about 4 pages a day French - A 40' long TV series episode, no subtitles Intensive reading a book in French, about 5 pages a day English - A 40' long TV series episode, no subtitles Then come the Anki decks: Chinese - two decks, one with sentences, one with character and meaning (no pinyin) Norwegian - three decks, two with sentences and one with nouns and expressions French - one deck with words German - one deck with words Russian - one deck with words Georgian - one deck with words, but translating from German Other than that, I have work to do, read other books and do an online course for work. Still, my problem is not with time, it's rather whether I'd be able to pick yet another language in a healthy way. I'm suffering from burnout every other day, something that was so rare before. Adding another language is like adding another sentence formation pattern to my brain, which has to deal with 8 of them on a daily basis (if you add native Portuguese). It's code-switching among 8 languages. Besides, it's another task to have performance worries about; I'm really concerned whether what I'm doing (all that is mentioned above) is ok, whether it is putting me on the right track or is mostly a loss of time, spending too much on not so effective methods. As for dropping one of these 4 languages I study from textbooks: Georgian - out of question =D Chinese - My favorite for dropping. I just fear that I may drop it and never come back. Studying it is demotivating. I can't really evaluate my progress after almost two years. If I come across an unknown character in a sentence, that means I can't figure out the meaning of that sentence. I don't have people to practice with, I can't make use of any native resources so far, I'm still very dependant on pinyin. But then I'm afraid I might leave it and never come back, and I still have the hope that it will start paying back in the future. Russian - alongside with Chinese, a language I'm learning mostly for external than for internal factors. I'm just doing an Assimil lesson and the decks and it's not enough to bring me into a reading B1 level which is what I need. Norwegian - I would regret dropping it as I think I'm getting into high A2 and once I get to B1 I'll stop using textbooks, so it will be mostly like English and French, that is, I'll stay only with the fun part of learning. I really think I'm going to do a try of adding Papiamento as a 5th language, but I'm sure I will regret that, as I will just increase the pressure I put on myself. Meanwhile, I'd like to hear advice on what I've mentioned above. It's a good problem to have after all, because it's all about bringing on more knowledge of languages and cultures. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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