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Systematic study to reach higher levels | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6662 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 9 of 52 17 April 2013 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'll be the dissenting voice here I guess. This is something I've been thinking and reading about a lot lately, as I
try to bridge this gap in Chinese. I'm not as familiar with the CEFR levels as I am with the ILR scale, but my understanding is that B2, C1, and C2 on the CEFR scale correspond roughly to 2, 3, and 4 on the ILR scale (level 5 being "functionally equivalent to a well- educated native," which of course many native speakers don't even reach). I'm currently somewhere around ILR3/CEFR C1, trying to reach ILR4/CEFR C2. My point of view is that while it may not be strictly necessary to follow a systematic course of study to reach ILR4 from ILR3, it seems to be much more effective to do so. In a study conducted by Betty Lou Leaver (cf. her Achieving Native-Like Second Language Proficiency: Speaking), the average time it took those interviewed to reach ILR4 from scratch was 17 years. Those who had enrolled in a course specifically designed to take them from ILR3 to ILR4 averaged only 5 years. They had generally reached ILR3, lived and worked in the target country for a few years, and then enrolled in the course. It has been found that a good program of this sort can bridge the gap in as little as 6 months (provided you can get 720-780 hours of instruction during that time), but I believe most such programs are slightly less intensive and span a year or so. Of those who had reached ILR4 without receiving instruction at that level, 75% wished it had been available to them. Of course, a good middle ground is to find a good tutor (and at this stage you really need to know what you want in a tutor and be very picky about who you hire), figure out what it will take for you personally to bridge that gap, and do that. Personally, I find that Taiwanese people, even language exchange partners, aren't likely to correct my errors as long as I'm able to communicate whatever I'm trying to get across, so one of the most important qualities I look for in a tutor is that they will correct every mistake I make. Some distinguishing features of ILR4 proficiency are accuracy (simple fluency isn't enough), the ability to use the appropriate register for any situation, and a deep understanding of cultural references, as well as the ability to fully understand a wide range of general-interest reading materials. A tutor who understands this and can recommend appropriate reading material, films, TV shows, etc. to fill in these gaps, as well as offer advice on adjusting your register to your audience. There is a book (edited by Betty Lou Leaver and Boris Shekhtman) called Developing Professional-Level Language Proficiency, which I have found especially instructive because it contains a chapter by Cornelius Kubler on these kinds of programs for Chinese, what sort of courses they teach and the materials they use, etc. Kubler has written fairly extensively on this subject, and is notable for his focus on learning to read handwriting in Chinese (cf. his "The Handwriting Is On The Wall, But Can We Read It?"), which is, of course, an intimidating proposition, but is necessary for reaching level 4. Anyway, at this point I'm just rambling, so suffice it to say that I think systematic study at this level will be very beneficial, and I think the evidence points to that as well. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6362 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 10 of 52 17 April 2013 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well said. And sorry about your other eye. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6662 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 11 of 52 17 April 2013 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ah, you know. Accidents happen. I'll forgive you.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5038 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 12 of 52 17 April 2013 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Think of the same question on any other subject: does it make sense to keep studying to reach a higher level of proficiency in, say, math, even if you're at the PhD level? Of course it does.
Getting better at anything necessarily involves learning what you don't know yet, regardless of levels. Can you learn everything there is to know on your own? Theoretically, yes, of course. You could rediscover and reinvent all human knowledge in every field on your own if you lived forever. However, it should be rather obvious that it will take less time (a fraction, hopefully small, of a normal lifetime) to learn the same stuff if others filter out the noise for you, guide you in the right direction, and help you with the hardest bits. If you really need or want to improve and your time is at a premium, it makes even less sense to ignore such an opportunity. What do you enjoy more, learning languages in itself, or using them at a reasonably high fraction of your potential? Study and enjoy life more fully after you're done, or jump off the cart and enjoy the walk, it's up to you. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4345 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 13 of 52 17 April 2013 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I like your post, but I guess (as someone at B1+, CEFR-2) I don't really understand what tutoring would give you at your level. As far as I could tell you should have good grammar already, so apart from pronunciation issues, what would seem critical is just lots of input (reading, reading reading! movies, radio, talking etc), and then lots of output talking and probably writing. Edited by patrickwilken on 17 April 2013 at 7:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6662 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 14 of 52 17 April 2013 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The research would suggest that it does indeed make that much of a difference (edit: of course, now you've
deleted the "does it make that much of a difference?" part of your post). The key point is, as mrwarper mentioned above, guidance. Preferably from someone who knows exactly what you're aiming for and has experience helping students reach that level. There's a reason (again, using Chinese as an example since that's what I'm familiar with) that the ICLP here in Taipei consistently turns out students with ILR4/"full professional" proficiency. Doing so has been their raison d'être since the founding of the school in the 60's, and they have done it every year since, with surprisingly little change in their teaching materials. They still use essentially the same novels, radio plays, university lectures, essays, short stories, classical Chinese readings, etc. that they have for decades, because they know it works. That is precisely why I use their curriculum as a blueprint for my own study. I can't afford the tuition, so I'm taking the middle ground I mentioned earlier. You may indeed stumble upon the cultural background knowledge, ability to tailor your speech to suit your audience, accuracy in word choice and grammatical construction, and other such things that characterize this level of proficiency by simply getting "lots of input." But that generally means you'll select material that you personally find interesting rather than those which will be most effective in filling in your gaps. So the odds are against you (very few people reach ILR4). And it will probably take a long time if you do. Say...17 years or so. There is much more to language than grammar. A good tutor can tell you when you're phrasing things in an awkward or non-native sounding way, for instance. You're not likely to pick up on that sort of thing on your own without years and years of using the language at a high level. At least, according to the research (which makes a lot of sense to me). Edited by OneEye on 17 April 2013 at 7:15pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6282 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 15 of 52 17 April 2013 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think tutoring and focussed languages classes can mainly help you pass tests. However,
as anyone can tell you, getting a 50% higher test score doesn't mean you speak and understand the language that much better. Your language knowledge increases somewhat, but I still think that reaching C2 level naturally (through a lot of interaction with the language) will result in much broader knowledge than studying for and passing a C2-level exam. E. g. if you want to increase your vocabulary size, you could study word lists for the SAT exam or you could read a lot of classic literature (which would of course take longer). However, having studied words off the list doesn't give you the same kind of knowledge as having encountered them while reading classic literature. Edited by Sprachprofi on 17 April 2013 at 7:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5038 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 16 of 52 17 April 2013 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Hairy questions per se :) For one, it seems less and less people are capable of accepting any guidance or not interfering with it even if they finally admit guidance will be good for them. Then, one way languages are quite different from other fields, is that the higher the level, the harder it is to find advanced materials focused on specific areas (as you would find exploring new branches of some other field). Often 'guides' will have to relay exclusively on their own experience to work on whatever vague descriptions of the 'guided' can give about where they want to go, assuming they have some idea to start with... --- Edit: sprachprofi posted while I was writing...
Not true. Unfortunately, in the SLT industry, tests are hugely important (for a reason, BTW) so you get a lot of this 'cheating' teaching that focuses on getting students to pass a test rather than making sure they're actually getting better at the language. Fortunately, the higher the level the less everyone has to cope with this kind of BS language teaching.
That depends on what you do when you encounter a new word while reading. All of my life I looked up such words in a dictionary and made sure I understood the definition and any non-obvious use examples that were given, regardless of the language being native of foreign. If you don't (and I think most people don't), it will be as little enriching as reading it from a list (assuming the usual, mostly useless kind of list). Edited by mrwarper on 17 April 2013 at 7:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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