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Systematic study to reach higher levels | ||
Tags: Advanced Level | Learning Strategy | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6662 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes  Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 25 of 52 18 April 2013 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I don't think it's "either/or" here. Nobody ever said you don't need "lots and lots and lots of immersion." What I'm
saying is that in addition to that, instruction helps. And according to the data, it seems to help a lot. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4345 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 26 of 52 18 April 2013 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Sure. I am not really disagreeing with you, but I guess I have somewhat different experiences. I used to work in an International graduate program here in Berlin in which English was the the official language and dealt with a lot of C1-ish level English speakers. And the best thing they could do to improve their English was to read trashy books and watch movies. I have seen people go from C1 to a good C2 in a reasonable amount of time doing this, and have never thought these people would really have been helped that much by targeted tuition. That's not the case for writing, but I am not sure here whether this has so much to do with basic language skills as to do with more generic writing skills. Edited by patrickwilken on 18 April 2013 at 5:34pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5038 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 27 of 52 18 April 2013 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Exactly. If you think about it, an "educated native", by definition, has been educated. Seems reasonable you'd have to do some study to reach the same level. Yet somehow most language learners reject that very simple notion ;(
You bet. The funny thing is, getting more proficient at the higher levels of a language mostly consists in stuff that's not language-dependent. I'm sure few educated learners will sound "uneducated" or not well-read in their TL unless they are somehow kept from advancing (lack of time, etc.).
You can certainly "enjoy" your way to such levels, but without guidance, chances are it'll take you bloody ages if it ever happens. However, I'm not so sure "good writing" differs so greatly between cultures. Looking back, most of what I read as a kid (and I read a lot more than most adults) was in translation, and as an adult I confirm it was all great stuff, if not the best "linguistically" or "literarily". BTW I was guided through most of my early reading by my parents, especially my father.
Moral of the story: if you settle for less, you'll never get more :)
In my parents' generation, you were proficient at writing by the time you could attend college, or you wouldn't access it, period. However, seeing how badly many doctors and thesis students write nowadays, I see what you mean.
Which is what makes for "good writing" in the wider sense, i.e. things like avoiding repetitions, properly explaining and connecting ideas, etc. -- language independent.
But again, this a thing that only differs in word choice from one language to another. Once you acknowledge thoughts can't be translated word by word, there's no reason why you would do this in your own language and not in another (unless you fail to see that, which would imply you're not clear how your own language works -- hey, exactly why many natives are not at the "educated native" level). One of the things that really frustrate me when using a foreign language I'm not proficient at yet is how constrained and limited I feel because I can't express myself as richly and freely as I would in others. It also motivates me to keep studying :)
Sure it's no substitute, it's a better replacement. ALL natives undergo lots and lots of immersion, yet few reach the "educated native" levels, certainly not the aforementioned 76%. Why? Education, maybe? ;) OTOH almost all proficient learners went through systematic study of one or the other kind at the higher levels of proficiency. Again looks like a hint to me... Edited by mrwarper on 18 April 2013 at 5:05pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6409 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 28 of 52 19 April 2013 at 2:22am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Trashy books give you vocabulary. Quality books improve your style. My experience totally matches what the AJATT guy says, that you have to read a lot in order to write well. Corrections are not enough without reading.
Edited by Serpent on 19 April 2013 at 2:25am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5038 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 29 of 52 19 April 2013 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Mmmh. When I say "education", to me that means a LOT of work outside school (as well as inside, but you would typically expect to get more 'interaction' in there), and most of it *is* reading. Actually, I think the reason why the 'feedback at higher levels' that has been mentioned seems so important for some people (or really necessary for some others I know) to achieve language proficiency is that they didn't read a whole lot in the first place. Which makes sense if you think about it: unless you retain very little of what you read, that has to be key in modelling your use of language, especially in your early days. If you didn't have so much data against which to model your language back then, well, you need to wait for that 'high level feedback' when you interact with other 'educated' people to sound 'educated' yourself. Tough :) So, I think you get to an 'educated' level basically by reading a lot, and if that fails, interaction with educated speakers can suffice to fill in the gaps at a later stage (like people starting to sound 'educated' while getting a PhD). However, if by 'reading' you mean 'random reading', I will only agree with the theoretical possibility, but I'll dub it 'unlikely'. You need much filtering, and being guided means someone else is doing the filtering for you. If they're any good you'll be saving a lot of time. Of course there are strategies to do the filtering on your own, but reading only stuff you like just won't do it, unless you happen to like exactly what's good for you ;) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4345 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 30 of 52 19 April 2013 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I guess we have different views on this. I think my L1 language skills are fine, without having had a tutor to guide me, and just having read things I like. This is just a personal style thing, but I can't stand the idea of letting someone decide what I should read in a language. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5038 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 31 of 52 19 April 2013 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I think you misunderstand me. Guidance *is not* telling you what to read or how to write. Do you think my parents ever did that? It is so much better to teach children how to wisely use their freedom than it is not telling them what to do. Granted, everyone is mostly happy with their L1 skills, but does that really mean anything? Is everybody equally proficient in their L1? Certainly not. What you need to ask yourself is how fine your L1 skills are compared to most others, and why you are [no] better than them. To me, the main difference between native and foreign languages is you usually start working on the latter too late. In addition to being way less exposed to it, as a teenager you're more likely to become resilient to guidance (or even worse, as an adult), which in turn will only slow down your learning. OTOH if you enroll in achieving something difficult in a foreign language environment in a set time, you have pretty much no choice but let yourself be guided (unless you're some sort of genius). So, back to square 1: should we be surprised at all that correlation between proficiency and foreign degrees is so high? :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4701 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 32 of 52 19 April 2013 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I cannot think of a single field of knowledge where "systemic studying" does not help at
advanced levels. I don't see why learning languages would be any different. This includes our native language, especially when it comes to writing. Edited by kanewai on 19 April 2013 at 7:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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