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Choosing a dialect from day 1 | ||
Tags: Dialect | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4818 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 17 of 45 01 September 2013 at 6:08pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, I noticed on Say Something in Welsh website. Quite a peculiarity of Welsh I dare say. But I heard most learners learn the south dialect, is it true?
Iguanamnon: thanks for a nice post. I totally agree that restricting oneself too much is harmful in the end. I just think your theory about learning various dialects of French does have one flaw. It is much harder to get to know the African or Carribean dialects because there are few resources. You can get tv series in Quebec French, books writen by authors taking pride in being belgian, not french, but you will rarely find a film using African French. There are actually some troubles with it as it is not always treated as a separate and full dialect. In some groups of academics, from what I read, the African French is still viewed as just the standard imported one with mistakes typical of the africans. I find it a bit sad. It is so different because none of the former colonies ever outgrew France in importance in any way. The only dialect that can seemingly compete is the Quebec one. But only seemingly because, unlike Brazilian Portuguese, it is just one of two languages of the area. There isn't even a basic textbook assuming you want to learn Quebeqois right away. And the other states, including the ones where French is official, are just of too small importance in comparison. I have seen one short film using African French or it may have even been bordering the dialect and standard. There should be much more if you dig deep enough. But you really need to dig. I guess Carribean will be a similar challenge, should you ever decide to learn French. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4477 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 18 of 45 01 September 2013 at 6:31pm | IP Logged |
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Most teacher say: choose one dialect/variant and be consistent.
Mixing Americanisms and Briticisms in an essay (be they orthographic or lexical) would mean one mark lower, more often than not, here in Croatia. The same is true for Brazilian/European Portuguese or Oslo/Bergen Norwegian (you either use the uvular R and the Bergen pitch accent in Norwegian or the alveolar R and the Oslo pitch accent in Norwegian, you don't mix them). Castillian Spanish may have more influence in some circles in USA and Western Europe, but not here in Croatia, since most Croatian immigrants live in Argentina and Chile, and all soap operas are from Mexico, Colombia, Argentina, no Spanish language variant is given preference here. As for people thinking highly of European Spanish because of the DELE exam, well, there is another certificate of Spanish, called CELU: ''Certificado de Español: Lengua y Uso El Certificado de Español: Lengua y Uso (CELU) es un certificado de español como lengua extranjera que tiene como objetivo certificar la capacidad de un hablante no nativo para desempeñarse en español. Se ofrece en Argentina desde 2004 por el Consorcio Interuniversitario para la Evaluación del Conocimiento y Uso del Español como Lengua Extranjera, integrado por diecinueve universidades de ese país. Candidatos El CELU puede ser solicitado por las personas que no tengan el español como lengua materna. Es requisito también tener dieciséis años cumplidos y tres años completos de educación equivalentes a la escuela secundaria o media o EGB 3 del sistema educativo argentino. Posibilita estudiar en universidades y trabajar en puestos que requieran el uso efectivo de la lengua, ya que entre otras cosas mide la capacidad de desempeño en este tipo de situaciones. Niveles Se acreditan dos niveles de desempeño: intermedio y avanzado. Ambos dan constancia, en distinto grado, de la capacidad lingüística efectiva del hablante extranjero para actuar en situaciones cotidianas, laborales o académicas. Por tratarse de un examen de dominio, cualquier variedad dialectal del español que utilicen los postulantes les permitirá comprender tanto las consignas como los textos presentados en el examen.'' What TOEFL is to American English, CELU is to Argentine Spanish. Argentine Spanish is the only variant of Spanish which has both 1. its integral dictionary (Diccionario integral del español de la Argentina); and 2. an internationally recognized language certificate. Mexican Spanish has only an integral dictionary but not a language certificate. Other Latin American variants of Spanish have neither. (Compare them to Brazilian Portuguese: BrPt has at least 20 integral dictionaries and a language certificate). Edited by Medulin on 01 September 2013 at 6:41pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5071 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 19 of 45 01 September 2013 at 7:12pm | IP Logged |
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Cavesa, thanks for the compliment. I always find your posts interesting as well. To further clarify, I didn't mean to say to learn the other dialects of French but to at least be familiar with them. There's a big difference. Being familiar gives one an edge when you come across the variety in real life and can give a learner half a chance to understand and start to learn. That's why I make a specific effort to expose myself to as much variety as possible as regards a large, widespread language, while still maintaining my concentration where I have chosen it to be.
You are correct that there are not enough resources available to actually learn the different varieties of French in a conventional manner, but there are enough available to become familiar with them- radio is widely available, even in Africa (or from international broadcasters using African voices to transmit to Africa), books and plays written by African and Caribbean authors, some TV, some older Peace Corps language manuals for African French exist. Quebecois has more resources available, media-wise, though little in the way of instructional materials. It is a hole that really needs to be filled- especially for North Americans. Didactic materials are indeed hard to come by but TUFS- Tokyo University of Foreign Studies French Page has very basic introductory lessons for Quebec French, Swiss French, and Français Midi (Merdional- as spoken in southern France/Marseilles) with English dialog translations. If you check it out, be sure to tick the boxes for English, French, Notes and Vocabulary. This is basic stuff- introductions, asking permission, etc, but it is useful enough to provide some familiarity. The Assimil "de poche" series serves a similar purpose. Wikipedia also gives a basic breakdown of dialectical/varietal differences. Still if one wanted to concentrate on Quebec, one could design one's own course using films, television, song, plays, books, blogs, radio, podcasts, twitter, language exchange, etc, after learning the standard Metropolitan French (or along side it). I'm not saying it would be easy. It would be hard work living outside Quebec, but it's doable. If I wanted to learn Caribbean French, that wouldn't be so difficult. I can listen to Guadeloupe, St Martin and Martinique broadcasters on my car radio here, as well as online. There are people who speak the language who live where I do and Caribbean France is a short sail or flight away. The issue becomes what is Caribbean French and when does it morph into Creole, which is based on French but not French. It can get complicated. Edit: If I do decide to learn French, one of my resources, out of many, will be to hire a tutor from Francophone Africa via skype. There are two currently available for about 8 euros an hour- one from Senegal and one from Cote d'Ivoire on glovico.org. I'm sure they teach the standard language but will definitely be familiar with African varieties and their differences with the standard language. Edited by iguanamon on 01 September 2013 at 7:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4818 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 20 of 45 01 September 2013 at 10:56pm | IP Logged |
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Yes, there is surely a difference between being familiar to understand and actively using (or even mixing) several. I think every learner would do well to get familiar with all the dialects they are likely to encounter but making your path to the active skills unnecessarily harder for dialects (either actively seeking or avoiding them at all cost) is, in my opinion, wrong and harmful.
Thanks for the tips, iguanamnon, I'll look at some of these sources. As I said, one must dig a bit deeper. Surely the Carribean French isn't attacking learners from every other corner like the Latinamerican Spanish does. Medulin, most teachers say a lot of things. Had I followed their advice closely, I would have never learnt any language. I have actively studied British grammar but vast majority of my input has been from the US. And my writing was corrected by americans many times. I mix both in my writing. I don't know your teachers but the Cambridge examinators didn't mind. My writing got graded C2 and therefore I wouldn't overestimate the importance. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Theycalme_Jane Diglot Newbie United Kingdom theafrikaanschalleng Joined 3934 days ago 28 posts - 48 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 21 of 45 02 September 2013 at 1:13pm | IP Logged |
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I agree entirely, my input over years has been mainly US English, but more and more British. And living in the country, I slowly adjust to the accent, but even now that I live in England, there are so many people from different places and I'm constantly with foreigners, that I cannot focus on just taking up one accent. Native speakers say my English is pretty flawless, but that I am obviously a foreigner, because I cannot decide on just one accent - and to be honest, I often don't know what accent I am using for what word.
I was desperate to learn Glaswegian, but if you do not manage to be around Glaswegians 24/7, it is nearly impossible, especially because it's a really difficult one to pick up physically, the positioning of the jar and producing the sounds to sound authentic is a nightmare. I am currently learning Afrikaans, learning only with online sources that I put together myself. There is no way I can get one and one accent only. I am currently picking favorites, liking the Pretorian accent best, but if I were to limit myself to only the few sources available in that accent, it'd be impossible to stick to my goal to be fluent in a year. Edited by Theycalme_Jane on 02 September 2013 at 1:15pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5184 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 22 of 45 02 September 2013 at 1:44pm | IP Logged |
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I found that the best way for me to develop my skills with Latin American Spanish speakers was to learn "Spain Spanish." It just happened by mistake. I liked Assimil and spent tons of time with three of their Spanish courses. Also, the only time I can do language exchanges on Skype is early in the mornings US time so I can only find Spaniards. If I would have focused exclusively on Latin American Spanish my Spanish with Latin Americans would be much worse now. By working so much (not necessarily by design) in "Spain Spanish" I am much better off.
Edit: I should add that I agree that it is very important to be familiar with the other versions of a language. Edited by James29 on 02 September 2013 at 1:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4818 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 23 of 45 02 September 2013 at 1:58pm | IP Logged |
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I actually wonder why so many people take speaking just like a native as such a prize.
Don't get me wrong, I consider it the best result when you can function just like a native. When you can understand various dialects, when you can understand any book, movie, radio programm or whatever you are interested in, when you can write anything a native can and you would in your native language, when you can speak about everything you want without any discomfort for either you or the other side. But all that is possible without trying to pass for a native from this or that part of the country. Even higher achievement is to be considered native of another dialect(while group A thinks you are one of the group B and vice versa). Or I find it the best when noone really thinks about whether you are native and just communicates with you normally. We all were born somewhere and got a native language. (The lucky ones got two.)Both these factors will stay in our lives forever, no matter where we end up and whether we forget 90% of the native language in exchange for a new one. The native language and origin will stay in our minds until we die so why should we strive for getting rid of the harmless extrernal details at all costs? Why should I, for example, try so hard to sound as if I had been born in a small village in the south of France? I wasn't. And even people from just a village 100km away (and with different dialect) who move in will never be reborn there and will most likely never keep parts of their old dialect from mixing with the new one. And some small communities remember that and still take the newcomer for a newcomer twenty years later. Why should I try to pass for one of their neighbours who spent the whole life in the village? 7 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4448 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 24 of 45 02 September 2013 at 2:31pm | IP Logged |
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Well I am learning Russian and so far I haven't even thought for a second about whether I should learn a specific Russian "dialect". Sure, I once quickly read what Wikipedia says about Russian dialects, but it would make no sense for me at this stage to try to understand the differences, let alone choose one over another. I have enough with learning Russian full stop.
I can understand the question of learning a variety of a language with a big geographical spread like Spanish, or with two distinct varieties like Portuguese (European and Brazilian), but even there I would say that it doesn't really matter which variety you choose as a beginner. The first Spanish classes I attended were given by an Argentinian professor, and surely he had a strong Argentinian accent. However, at the time I simply wanted to learn Spanish, and I saw no point in choosing a particular accent or dialect. Also, as a foreigner I have no qualms about some mixing (I speak mainly British English, but from time to time I use American vocabulary, I guess it is just the influence from so many movies/films.) Of course, if you are at an advanced level and are supposed to write essays, articles etc. in a language, you should be as consistent as possible, but for me that is more about spelling etc. If I happen to use "elevator" instead of "lift" in a particular text I write in British English, I hardly think that is the end of the world. (Edit: stupid spelling mistakes corrected.) Edited by Ogrim on 02 September 2013 at 2:33pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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