Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

C2 vs native speaker

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
47 messages over 6 pages: 1 2 3 46  Next >>


Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4726 days ago

9084 posts - 16476 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 33 of 47
19 December 2013 at 10:29am | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
In sum, one can't compare native proficiency and C2 proficiency. They are apples and oranges.


I agree, and I can also see that our discussion here corroborates the view that the specific skills of a native speaker (swearing, knowing the local celebrities, having a genuine accent instead of a hotch-potch accent etc.) aren't necessarily the same as those measured by the CEFR tests. Apples and oranges indeed. My problem is that I would want to be tested on pear shaped skills.

Edited by Iversen on 19 December 2013 at 10:39am

3 persons have voted this message useful



montmorency
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 2851 days ago

2371 posts - 3675 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Danish, Welsh

 
 Message 34 of 47
19 December 2013 at 10:40am | IP Logged 
Medulin wrote:
There are people who have a C2 certificate who can't translate many
everyday expressions like ''My shoelaces have come undone'' .


:-) I have to admit that until I watched "Berlin: Alexanderplatz" recently, I didn't
know the German for "shoelaces" (not of course that I claim to be C2 or anything like
it, but would certainly have failed the "shoelace test" (among others). (The "hero"
becomes a shoelace street-merchant ("Straßenhändler" apparently) at one point; sorry if
that's a spoiler...).

I notice that there are about 5 ways of saying "shoelaces", two of them regional, and
another one for leather shoelaces (Schnürriemen).

Anyway, I suppose one could get away with "Meine Schnürsenkel kam los", but I don't
know if that is the usual expression. (Yes, I realise that's just an example ...)


1 person has voted this message useful



Lugubert
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Sweden
Joined 4890 days ago

186 posts - 235 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, Danish, Norwegian, EnglishC2, German, Dutch, French
Studies: Mandarin, Hindi

 
 Message 35 of 47
19 December 2013 at 11:35am | IP Logged 
Another case of different levels: I have a friend who is perfectly to fairly orally fluent in seven languages - from three different language families!

Sufficiently good writing in English and Swedish, but not writing proficient in Vietnamese or Modern Standard Chinese ("Mandarin"). Reads and speaks French and Spanish, less good at reading Vietnamese or MSC. L1 Cantonese.

I hesitate before the risk of being regarded as just bragging, but I think my English skills at least fulfil C2 criteria: neck-breaking punning that natives approve of, loads of (sparingly used) colloquialisms, an accent that often puzzles native listeners ("Can't guess in what part of Britain you were born"), and a fair knowledge of local politics, garbage regulations etc.
3 persons have voted this message useful



culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2020 days ago

246 posts - 436 votes 
Speaks: Spanish

 
 Message 36 of 47
19 December 2013 at 1:35pm | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
In my opinion, this debate got off on the wrong foot because there is the implicit assumption that the CEFR C2
and native proficiency are comparable levels on the same scale, as if native proficiency were a sort of C3 or C4..
This is fundamentally wrong. C2 cannot be compared to native proficiency.

First of all, keeping in mind its origins and purpose, the CEFR model, as a system of assessment of foreign
language skills, is strongly biased towards the educated user. When you get to the C-level, there is the
underlying assumption that you have a certain level of education and can handle relatively sophisticated topics.

Secondly, there is no scale of native proficiency. Native speakers have varying levls of education and these are
reflected in their linguistic skills. There are illeterate native speakers. But they are still native speakers. Many
native speakers may have difficulty passing a C2 or even a C1 examination. So what? Many educated native
adults would probably have difficulty passing secondary school examinations in certain subjects because it has
been many years since they have taken tests.

Thirdly, it should be pointed out that the CEFR does not mention phonetic proficiency. One has to be intelligible
and we can assume that accent improves as one goes up the scale, but there is no attempt to assess accent.

I mention this last point because one of the most striking differences between C2 level second language speakers
will probably be accent. C2 candidates are not graded on accent, and I doubt that any such candidates have an
accent close to native. On the other hand, native speakers will usually have an accent that indicates a regional
and or a social class origin.

But that is just part of the story. The fundamental difference between a native speaker and a C2-level foreigner is
not really so much linguistic as what I would call cultural. Being born, raised and educated in a language means
that you have encoded a vast store of experiences that the second language student can never match.

When two native speakers of approximately the same age and the same city or area meet, they will speak to each
other in a form of coded language that outsiders cannot understand because of the many implicit references that
the speakers use continuously. We all do this when we meet friends that we haven't seen in a long time. This is
why casual conversations in a room full of native speakers can be very challenging for even the very advanced
foreign speaker.

As an example of all this, all native speakers have quite a good knowledge of colloquial language and slang,
including vulgar, taboo, and obscene language, Everybody can swear in their language even though not
everybody does.   Much of this language is used in jokes and humour. How many C2 graduates can tell dirty jokes
in the language?

In sum, one can't compare native proficiency and C2 proficiency. They are apples and oranges.


+1. My English is spoken at an A2 or B1 level most days and almost everything I say with friends is either a reference to the Chappelle show, Anchorman, or maybe South Park. Sometimes there is a Lonely Island reference if we're lucky.

Then in other situations it turns into a highly specialized C2 level that the vast majority of native English speakers don't understand.
1 person has voted this message useful



beano
Diglot
Senior Member
United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 2645 days ago

1049 posts - 2152 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian

 
 Message 37 of 47
19 December 2013 at 3:03pm | IP Logged 
montmorency wrote:

Anyway, I suppose one could get away with "Meine Schnürsenkel kam los", but I don't
know if that is the usual expression. (Yes, I realise that's just an example ...)



I'm sure my wife once said to me "deine Schnürsenkel ist aus"

That's one big advantage of being married to a native speaker. You learn a ton of everyday expressions that never appear in textbooks.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 2867 days ago

2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 38 of 47
19 December 2013 at 10:32pm | IP Logged 
@montmorency + beano: "Die Schnürsenkel" is plural. In the singular, it's "der Schnürsenkel".

I would express the sentence in question as: "Meine Schnürsenkel sind offen/lose."
3 persons have voted this message useful



aokoye
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 3564 days ago

235 posts - 453 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Dutch, Norwegian, Japanese

 
 Message 39 of 47
20 December 2013 at 2:02am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
s_allard wrote:
How many C2 graduates can tell dirty jokes in the
language?
If you are comfortable with dirty jokes in your L1, you can start
telling them at A1.


If by that you mean directly translating a joke in your L1 to a joke in the target
language then I suppose one could depending on vocabulary. However if you're talking
about telling to joke in the person's target language in such a way that the same message
is accurately being conveyed then I think your above statement is very incorrect.
1 person has voted this message useful



trance0
Pentaglot
Groupie
Slovenia
Joined 3773 days ago

52 posts - 78 votes 
Speaks: Slovenian*, English, German, Croatian, Serbian

 
 Message 40 of 47
05 May 2016 at 5:07pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
@montmorency + beano: "Die Schnürsenkel" is plural. In the singular,
it's "der Schnürsenkel".

I would express the sentence in question as: "Meine Schnürsenkel sind offen/lose."


Or Meine Schnürsenkel sind auf(gegangen). Meine Schnürsenkel haben sich aufgelöst.
I am not sure about Meine Schnürsenkel sind aus. I think you probably
misunderstood the word auf as it sounds very similar to aus.

Edited by trance0 on 05 May 2016 at 5:26pm



2 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 47 messages over 6 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 46  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.2822 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2019 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.