|
 |
Input is necessary but not sufficient. | ||
Tags: Comprehensive input | ||
Share with:
| ||
 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5058 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 9 of 36 22 December 2014 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | ||
|
There are no "magic bullets". Massive input helps a great deal, but without speaking and writing practice, output will be clunky. In my experience, it's askill that must be worked on. Balance- yes, reading and listening are usually lopsided (sometimes to the point of exclusivivity) because it's relatively easier for independent learners to do. To speak with people, to write and be corrected by people, that takes more effort and risk. Language learners are not immune from human nature and will often take the easy way out. There's nothing wrong with developing passive understanding, but if one wants to actually speak a language then speak one must. Input can be the larger proportion of interaction with a TL but without at least some speaking and writing it can leave a learner incomplete.
If I were learning how to drive, and all I ever did was read the manual and watch videos, would you want to meet me on the road behind the wheel of a car? Shadowing and self talk are helpful, no doubt about it. A real, live, spoken conversation helps to develop speaking skills in a way that talking to one's self can't. There's often fear built into this. Fear of making mistakes, of not having perfect grammar. Shyness can be an issue and that's another obstacle that must be worked on that can lead to not finding natives with whom to practice. Speaking, conversation, really helps to consolidate things and make new connections in my brain- at least for me, in my experience. Edited by iguanamon on 22 December 2014 at 9:13pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6393 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 10 of 36 22 December 2014 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | ||
It doesn't sound like she's read a single book though? I think it's a common problem among HL speakers. Another one is that they may have no overview of grammar. Intuitive knowledge can feel much more shaky. That's where a knowledge of linguistics and a general language learning experience helps. I'm far less good at the languages in which my only reading is facebook&twitter, no matter how much listening I do. Massive input isn't very compatible with choosing the skill you like more and developing it (which also includes reading books but not doing enough listening) I'm not saying that more input is always THE answer, but much of the time this option is highly underrated. If you have a clear problem, definitely fix it if you can. But most of the time the problem is all over the place and then input can be the glue that you need :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5328 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 11 of 36 23 December 2014 at 1:47am | IP Logged | ||
I have no idea whether she's ever read a book in her HL. But she actually spoke it natively, until she gave it up around 6 or so, which surely must count for something. She continued to live around HL speakers, and she heard it every day for another dozen years or so, so she kept her listening skills. (Like I said, I've seen other, less dramatic examples of the same thing. Lots of heritage learners around here.) Meanwhile, most 7-year-olds with 6 months of immersion can learn to speak a language conversationally (if not fluently or academically). So this gives us: - 6 years of native use, including speaking + 12 years of input-only: No speaking skills. - 6 months of immersion, with no choice but to speak: Basic speaking skills. To me, this strongly suggests that comprehension doesn't reliably transfer over to speaking if there's no particular need to speak. Of course, there may be people who do develop speaking skills spontaneously, even if they don't need to speak—perhaps they just have a stronger internal monologue, or they pay more attention to details, or something like that. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6393 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 12 of 36 23 December 2014 at 7:59am | IP Logged | ||
|
IDK, I think the mindset is important here. Heritage speakers can even actively resist a language, they don't tend to value it until their adulthood unless they're thrown back into the environment where they need to speak the language.
I also wonder if the thing about "not being produce a single correct sentence" is largely psychological. Listening gives you much less time to judge whether you'd be able to say this or that thing. Basically, no, I don't think massive input can work without a few books. I'm not even speaking of SC-equivalent amounts here. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7001 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 13 of 36 23 December 2014 at 8:42am | IP Logged | ||
I agree with your conclusion. When comparing duration of experience, various factors come into play: Recency - How long ago was that experience? Agency - (I just made up this usage of the word) - How old was the individual when they had the experience? It's not the same to have 5 years of immersion with a language between the ages of 0 and 5, as compared to, say age 10-15. P.S. Heritage French speakers in the U.S. Are you in South Florida? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4805 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 14 of 36 23 December 2014 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | ||
|
I can't speak of heritage learners but from my experience with both my own learning
and observation of many people around me, I believe huge amounts of input won't teach you everything but they are a necessary part of learning. People who resist just getting a grammatical explanation (I'd say for exemple RS and other "magic method" users) just won't get the advanced skills. People who tackle a very different language without translations and explanations are likely to make their path much longer than necessary. So, there are ways to make your learning process more efficient than 100% input. However, I know dozens of people who have spent years and decades on a language, were practicing active skills, explicit grammar and vocab and some input exercises (basically the normal class or individual tutoring mix) and they are horrible at the language. Obviously, they miss the large amounts of input. The few minutes of audio exercise and a stupid article per week, that is not enough. All the more active exercises, drills and practice just don't have the solid base to draw from. My own exemple: I was a barely B2 French speaker (with a certificate,so it was B2 already) with much weaker speaking skill than the others. Than I spent a year or two only with extensive input and no other French activities, no speaking practice, no grammar, no intensive input approach, nothing like that. I went abroad after this period, met a group of French speakers and I was suddenly much more fluent, expressed myself quite freely and with far fewer mistakes, with huge reduction of my previous foreign accent. Obviously, the input had been the large missing piece of the puzzle. So, I think while large amounts of input are not a miraculous fix to all the troubles, they are as close to such a thing as possible. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6393 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 15 of 36 23 December 2014 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | ||
Well, it depends on how much you resist. If you treat it like a linguistic enigma, it can be very enjoyable and fulfilling. And don't underestimate the power of your brain, especially if you've already learned 1-2 foreign languages. Of course, as emk said, if you feel like you're banging your head against the wall, it's time to change your strategy. Cheat more. Add sugar. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4329 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 16 of 36 23 December 2014 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | ||
|
I know lots of immigrants to Australia who learnt English to a very high level (perhaps not C2 since they weren't academically leaning) without formal grammar/class study, using only a massive input approach. Because of this I am confident that given enough time Massive Input does work. However, the amount of input these immigrants experienced was far far more than the average language learner would/could want to do. When you are living for years and years in a language 24/7 - what we call a Super Challenge seems a little silly in comparison.
I am also not convinced by the example of heritage learners, simply because I am now performing at in much the same way as they do (at least as EMK describes) and I know how weak my receptive skills still are compared to native speakers. That's not to say that I don't believe that active grammar/writing practice isn't important - just that I don't think the example of heritage speakers is such a strong data point either way. Edited by patrickwilken on 23 December 2014 at 8:57pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
|  | 
Printable version
|
| Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization. |
