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Bull you believed starting out | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6390 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 65 of 94 26 June 2015 at 11:04am | IP Logged | ||
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And again that's largely due to not listening enough... Spanish or Italian don't sound *that* fast after some time.
But yeah it's taken me so long to realize that someone speaking slowly and calmly often doesn't sound boring at all, but warm and confident. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4458 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 66 of 94 26 June 2015 at 11:15am | IP Logged | ||
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I understand lots of Spanish but basically zero (spoken) German. Spanish still sounds waaay faster.
It's okay, I love Hispanophones and their language anyway even if my clumsy English-formed mouth will never be able to match their blistering pace. :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6998 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 67 of 94 26 June 2015 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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Bull I believed...
That the "talk to yourself" technique would introduce and cement errors and should therefore be avoided. Edited by luke on 26 June 2015 at 12:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5358 days ago 938 posts - 1839 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 68 of 94 26 June 2015 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | ||
Yeah, I agree. One thing I have noticed about children aged 3-6 I have been around (mine and other peoples') is that they often talk to themselves in play and try out new vocabulary they have acquired from their friends, parents, tv etc. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5000 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 69 of 94 26 June 2015 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | ||
That's a trap I also keep falling into, thinking I need to speak fast in order to be seen as speaking well. I have a couple of Italian friends who speak slowly and clearly, and I find their voices really nice and pleasant, I love listening to them! I try to keep that in mind whenever I'm tempted to go faster than I can handle. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4415 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 70 of 94 26 June 2015 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | ||
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That adult learners can never learn to truly replicate sounds that don't exist in their native tongue, because the vocal chords become "hardwired" after a certain age.
I had a spectacular reminder of that last weekend in the north of Scotland, when spending time in the company of a woman who was born, raised and educated in France until the age of 23. Now in her mid-40s, she sounds exactly like a native Highlander and I would never have guessed she was French, had she not told me. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5358 days ago 938 posts - 1839 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 71 of 94 26 June 2015 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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That'll be the auld alliance at work... :-)
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ScottScheule Diglot Senior Member United States scheule.blogspot.com Joined 5021 days ago 645 posts - 1176 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French | Message 72 of 94 26 June 2015 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've generally (like others here, it seems) underestimated the amount of time it takes to move from basic proficiency to fluency, and the reason for this is I've underestimated how many vocabulary items are necessary. Grammar, in comparison, is easy. Conjugations and declinations struck me as a difficult part of the process at first (probably because English is my native language), but I now recognize they are some of the easiest.
But the sheer amount of vocabulary necessary is enormous. By vocabulary I don't simply mean individual words, but also set phrases and idioms. Even after many years of studying Spanish diligently, I still find in everyday conversation with native speakers that I often find myself at a loss for how to translate an easy English concept into Spanish. And it's not that Spanish is lacking the necessary expression, it's just that I haven't learned it yet, despite having a massive vocabulary. Now I can fake it, by producing a literal translation, but I'm well aware this isn't idiomatic. So, even though I may know how to conjugate any verb, and although I may know the word for "star" and how to pluralize it, I may still be ignorant of how to say "There are stars out" in Spanish. Chunks like that have to be learned as surely as any single word. I've also learned that learning a language consists of many different tasks, and success in the performance of one task does not help with the others as much I thought it would. I thought that, for example, if I simply learned enough vocabulary, I'd be able to understand Spanish songs. That's not the case--rather, what's helped me understanding Spanish songs is actively listening to them (and making corresponding flashcards). Reading literature is vastly different from that, and one has to practice that specifically. Other areas that are largely separate: writing, verbal communication, understanding spoken speech. One must apply one's self to each of these--they will not come as a freebie from working on another aspect of language knowledge. More specific things I've learned, mainly relating to vocabulary acquisition, are these. One should learn words in isolation. The exception is when the word is part of a fossilized expression--in that case, the word really can't be isolated meaningfully. For example, the "dint" in "by dint of." But usually words have isolated meanings that native speakers can readily explain, and a second language learner should train themselves to be able to do so as well. I've made flashcards with whole sentences that consist of several words I've yet to learn, and this is a costly mistake. It is far better to make sure one knows all the pieces of a phrase first. Then one can acquire the whole phrase consisting of these words with more ease. Similarly, it's best to learn the simplest items of vocabulary first. Before one learns a word like "disestablishmentarianism" one should have learned the components first: dis-, establish, -ment, -ism, etc. That is to say, learn roots first when possible. Acquisition of more complex vocabulary is easier afterwards. There will come a point, when enough roots are learned, that one can easily figure out even brand new words without a dictionary, because they're often composed of recognizable roots. When I started, I thought rare words only need to be learned for recognition, not reproduction. I now think this is a mistake--even if the word is uncommon, and not one you expect to frequently use, it's important to learn to reproduce it as well. This makes it a more secure vocabulary item, even if you only have to recognize it in the future. I may never use the word "invar" in my life, but if I can reproduce it in some fashion--say a flashcard that prompts "metal made of nickel and iron, starts with I"--then I will be more likely to recognize it when I see it in a sentence. With flashcards, it's important to pay attention to words that are frequently missed. In the beginning, I got rid of the leech threshhold and figured if I just worked at any word hard enough, even if I missed it dozens of times, eventually it would stick. I now think this is a waste of time. If one is continually missing a word there is something wrong and it's a better use of time to figure out what it is and remedy it. Usually the reason is that it is being confused with a similar word. I find it useful to make a flashcard that presents both of those similar words and ask for the difference between them. Positive things I've learned: though progress is slower than I thought, it nevertheless certainly happens. There's no substitute I know for the slow accumulation of necessary vocabulary, but it will eventually tip the balance so that a native text that was initially mystifying will become comprehensible. 7 persons have voted this message useful |
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