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Only listen!

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 4748 days ago

4474 posts - 6725 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 81 of 90
12 April 2007 at 6:41pm | IP Logged 
LilleOSC wrote:
Volte wrote:
I agree that it's intense, but I only found it hard on the voice initially. When I heard of shadowing (on this forum), I soon started to shadow Italian, French, German, and Dutch, in study sessions that lasted between half an hour and over an hour; my throat was sore for the first week or two, but at this point, I don't find that it gets sore even after a couple of hours of shadowing (which is a big improvement, because my throat used to get sore after less than an hour of speaking English, my native language).

Wow it must be really hard on the throat.Can you lose your voice this way?


I was hoarse for a few days, and cut back but didn't stop; after that, it just hasn't been a problem. During the worst day, my throat didn't hurt that much, though it hurt a bit, and it sometimes took me a few tries to say something (in English), because my voice wouldn't come out, and then I'd sound normal; a few other times that day, I sounded hoarse. Basically, it wasn't pleasant, but it wasn't so terrible either, and the worst didn't last long.

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Linguamor
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 4927 days ago

469 posts - 599 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 82 of 90
13 April 2007 at 1:11pm | IP Logged 
http://www.languageimpact.com/articles/gt/kickstrt.htm

Quote:
And when I say speak, I really do mean speak. A tape recorder can't speak. Neither can a parrot, in the sense I have in mind. By "speak a language", I mean that you can start with an idea that you want to get across, and go on to express that idea in words that someone else can understand.


Repeating, echoing, chorusing, etc., as helpful as these may be, is not really speaking the language.





Edited by Linguamor on 13 April 2007 at 1:23pm

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Ari
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 4891 days ago

2314 posts - 5695 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese
Studies: Czech, Latin, German

 
 Message 83 of 90
13 April 2007 at 1:43pm | IP Logged 
Linguamor wrote:
Repeating, echoing, chorusing, etc., as helpful as these may be, is not really speaking the language.

Nope, but it's good for your pronounciation. For getting ideas across, all you have to do is think in the language, and maybe speak aloud once in a while. I don't find that a very difficult part of language learning, since you can basically train it all day long without much effort.
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 4984 days ago

1296 posts - 1781 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 84 of 90
14 April 2007 at 2:16pm | IP Logged 
So, you agree to say "Practice cannot help and in fact it damages one's ability to learn naturally" is just nonsense.

http://www.algworld.com/principles.htm
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tujiko
Senior Member
United States
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140 posts - 144 votes 
Speaks: English*

 
 Message 85 of 90
14 April 2007 at 2:20pm | IP Logged 
I can understand the bits about sore throats. Back when I spent 3 hours a day for a solid month internalizing Learn in Your Car Italian, my throat would hurt each day until the muscles got used to being used so much. In the end, it was well worth it - I've never learned a language so quickly - but it did take some getting used to.
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Ari
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 4891 days ago

2314 posts - 5695 votes 
Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese
Studies: Czech, Latin, German

 
 Message 86 of 90
15 April 2007 at 2:48am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
So, you agree to say "Practice cannot help and in fact it damages one's ability to learn naturally" is just nonsense.

http://www.algworld.com/principles.htm

Was that directed to me? I've never said I agree with everything ALG says, but I think they have some good points. Practice does help, of course it does, but it might also damage one's ability to learn naturally. Practice a lot and you'll get good pronounciation. Do the ALG comprehensive input approach, and it'll take a long time, but you'll get perfect pronounciation.

The above is what I think. It's not something I know. I have way too little info about ALG, linguistics, developmental psychology and whatnot, for me to form a well-founded standpoint.
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 4984 days ago

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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
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 Message 87 of 90
15 April 2007 at 1:29pm | IP Logged 
Ari wrote:
slucido wrote:
So, you agree to say "Practice cannot help and in fact it damages one's ability to learn naturally" is just nonsense.

http://www.algworld.com/principles.htm

Was that directed to me? I've never said I agree with everything ALG says, but I think they have some good points. Practice does help, of course it does, but it might also damage one's ability to learn naturally. Practice a lot and you'll get good pronounciation. Do the ALG comprehensive input approach, and it'll take a long time, but you'll get perfect pronounciation.

The above is what I think. It's not something I know. I have way too little info about ALG, linguistics, developmental psychology and whatnot, for me to form a well-founded standpoint.


The questions are for everybody.

Sure it is interesting this approach. My own approach is about a lot of input. The question is the "only listen" approach seems too radical. And to affirm that open the mouth at the beginning cause "irreversible brain damage" to learn correctly the language seems nonsense, isn't it?
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 4984 days ago

1296 posts - 1781 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 88 of 90
15 April 2007 at 4:23pm | IP Logged 
All the contradictions between experts about those "input hypotesis" are a little exasperating.

Sure it's difficult to develop and assess scientific evidence. How can we assess what are doing people with his mind?

Two persons can receive the same input (listening or reading if you want) without any output, but we don't know if one of them practice a lot inside his mind. Sure the results will be different.

Maybe one of them practice the sentences in his head. Maybe he experiment with words in his head, mentally reviewing, trying new combinations, comparing, imagining different situations, talking himself in silence and never ever writing and talking aloud.

Apparently this person is an example of "input hypotesis", but he (or she) "practices a lot" (output) since the beginning, but only with his mind.

I think this can be a very big "confusion factor" in any scientific research about this subject, because it is very difficult to assess and control.



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