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Icelandic and Greenlandic | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Earle Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6136 days ago 276 posts - 276 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Norwegian, Spanish | Message 25 of 31 11 January 2013 at 2:10am | IP Logged | ||
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| Homogenik Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4645 days ago 314 posts - 407 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Polish, Mandarin | Message 26 of 31 11 January 2013 at 2:23am | IP Logged | ||
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For Icelandic resources, I can mention the following:
Icelandic Online Islenska fyrir alla (book series) Online Icelandic Lessons 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6730 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 31 11 January 2013 at 10:05am | IP Logged | ||
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Faroese may not be a dialect of Icelandic, but couldn't one say that both are dialects of say West Scandinavian? As soon as someone (usually an A speaker) says that "B is a dialect of A" I get the feeling that A is "older", perhaps more "superior" and you can take it from there.
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| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4665 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 28 of 31 11 January 2013 at 11:34am | IP Logged | ||
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Of course, both Modern Icelandic and Faroese are branches of the insular Scandinavian languages which directly descend from Old Icelandic (aka West Old Norse). Their grammars and vocabulary are very similar and I think learning Faroese must be very easy for Icelanders, just as learning Icelandic will be easy for a Faroese. Nevertheless, their pronunciations are VERY different. Especially Faroese takes some time to get used to, which is due to Hammershaimb's etymological orthography of Faroese.
Both Icelandic and Faroese have changed the pronunciation of Old Norse, but Faroese has definitely changed more. There have been some vowel shifts and a phenomenon known as the "Faroese sharpening" of short vowels. Moreover, some consonants changed their pronunciation drastically or disappeared altogether. Hammershaimb concealed these changes by spelling the words according to their etymology rather than to their actual pronunciation. That means a Faroese text looks rather similar to an Icelandic or Old Norse text, but if you read it out loud you won't recognize it. Example: "nýjum" (dat. pl. of "new") is pronounced ['ni:jʏm] in Icelandic with a long 'ee' sound in the first syllable and a short 'ü' sound in the second syllable. The Faroese equivalent "nýggjum" is pronounced ['nʊdʒʊn] with a short 'oo' sound in the first and the second syllable and different consonant sounds (the Icelandic 'y' like in "year" becomes a 'j' like in "jungle", the final consonant is an 'n' rather than an 'm'). Second example: "tíð" ("time"). This word is spelt exactly the same in Icelandic and Faroese. The Icelandic pronunciation is [tʰi:ð] with a long 'ee' and a final 'th', while the Faroese pronunciation is [tʰʊɪ] with a diphthong consisting of a short 'oo' and a short 'ee' and without any final consonant (ð is always silent in Faroese except as a hiatus filler). Third example: "dagur" ("day"). Icelandic pronunciation ['d̥a:ɣʏr̥], Faroese pronunciation ['dɛavʊɹ]. Icelandic long 'ah' corresponds with a Faroese diphthong like in English "yeah". The soft fricative 'g' sound becomes a 'v', the 'ü' becomes an 'oo', the unvoiced trilled 'r' becomes an approximant like in English. I guess it might be relatively easy for a native speaker of Icelandic to learn these correspondences in the course of some longer exposure to spoken Faroese, but I doubt he or she might recognize them when hearing Faroese for the first time. Just as there are many similarities between German and Dutch, but you nevertheless have to learn the differences. Moreover, there still are some differences in vocabulary and grammar irrespective of their overall similarity (e.g. Faroese has an indefinite article, Icelandic doesn't), not to mention idiomatic expressions. Edited by Josquin on 11 January 2013 at 3:14pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6730 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 29 of 31 11 January 2013 at 11:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Exactly, I totally agree with you (especially regarding your analogies with Dutch/German and Catalan/Spanish). People who don't know any Dutch, invariably think it's a dialect of German. Last week I heard someone say "it's not even a real language - it's a mix of [insert random Germanic languages]". I know it's easy to come to that "conclusion" when you're not a native speaker of either, but it doesn't help anyone. Add a grain of politics and all of a sudden the idea that a certain language is just a dialect might start a war.
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| Malek Groupie Christmas Island Joined 4164 days ago 60 posts - 76 votes | Message 30 of 31 11 January 2013 at 3:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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From Wikipedia:
"Anthropological linguists define dialect as the specific form of a language used by a speech community. In other words, the difference between language and dialect is the difference between the abstract or general and the concrete and particular. From this perspective, everyone speaks a dialect. Those who identify a particular dialect as the "standard" or "proper" version of a language are in fact using these terms to express a social distinction. Often, the standard language is close to the sociolect of the elite class." I'm very much in agreement with this. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kaptengröt Tetraglot Groupie Sweden Joined 4159 days ago 92 posts - 163 votes Speaks: English*, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic Studies: Japanese | Message 31 of 31 11 January 2013 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Here I shall give you some examples in Faroese that I collected, note that the in the wordlists I didn't change them to dictionary form. And that I have never once looked up a Faroese word in a dictionary so all my "meanings" are inferred. Also note that my written Icelandic is crap so I probably remembered the forms wrong but whatever:
Faroese - Icelandic/Swedish (you can read all of these if you know Icelandic, except for about three words) "hvør skal hava hann?" spurdi… "eg veit aldri" - ég veit aldrei "minnst meg rætt" "hvat sigur tú?" - "hvað segir þú?" "hvat hevur tú gjørt?" "Tað veit eg ikki" - "það veit ég ekki" "men tað er so vakurt" - "men það er svo vackert" (vackert existing in Swedish for example) "Ja, men hon hevði rætt" - Já, men hon havði rétt"? "Tað var kalt" - það var kalt (It was cold - You can say this sentence structure in Scandinavian but I don't think you can in Icelandic) "Mý!" rópti dóttir Mymlu. „Hvar er systir mín? Svara!" "Lurta her, Mymla," segði pápi Mumitrøllið úr ruggustólinum, "Soleiðis sum tú rópar og geylar, kemur hon aldri fram." Essentially written Faroese is Icelandic with more Scandinavian words and a little more simplified grammar (trending towards the Scandinavian simplified grammar). You CAN read Faroese if you know Icelandic and no Scandinavian although it is a little difficult (you can usually still get the gist of everything), however someone like me who knows some of both Icelandic and Scandinavian (despite not being fluent in either, and knowing Swedish which is less related than Norwegian or Danish would be), Faroese becomes so incredibly easy to read that it is a joke. If you know that all Icelanders learn Danish in school then it must be just as easy for them too. There are also a few very easy rules you can keep in mind to help see the similarities. I have not once had to look up a Faroese grammar or vocabulary in order to understand anything - the only difficulty is a few minor words that are uniquely Faroese that may trip you up when you need to know very specific details. However I am not sure if those also are understandable if you know Scandinavian, and if you simply keep reading you will pick them up the second or third time they appear in a sentence. Maybe chiefly Faroese words?: heingikoyggjuna - hammock? (the first "hanging" word is obvious, the second word isn't) jóansøkokvøld - some holiday or something, kvøld being obvious peikaði við - puffed on? (about a cigar) umsjónarmaður/-kona - policeman/woman? (referring to some sort of person, obviously) skelti - sign? Then you have some similar words between the languages that are used a little differently, but you would still be able to understand just fine: stýra - "steer", govern (grammatical), I forget what Icelandic uses for this but I think it is different. sleppa - (släppa in swe - "to let go") - but in Faroese meaning, to stop/end Words that are really obvious if you know Icelandic: yvirlit - overview innihaldsyvirlit - content overview Ognarfornøvn - Possessive pronouns (since eigandi means "owner" in Icelandic, and fornöfn means pronouns... maybe this isn't instant to everyone but for some reason it was to me, probably thanks to context.) Words that are clear if you know Scandinavian (some of these are also very similar in Icelandic): oyðilegga - ödelägga (swe) - destroy klædnaskápi - klädskåp (swe) - "clothes cupboard", wardrobe. In Icelandic it would be "fataskáp(ur)" or something like that, but they too have the word klæði to mean clothing. turka - torka (swe) - dry. In Icelandic the verb is þurrka or something. partur - (not in swe but you can guess from eng) - part familju - familj (swe) - family seinasti - senast (swe) - last lampa - lampa (swe) - lamp, object that gives off light via a lightbulb nøsinn - nos, näsa (swe) - nose køkinum - kök (swe) - kitchen tendraði - tända (swe)? - tended lights (they are on/turn them on) akvarium - akvarium (swe) - aquarium harragud! - herregud! (swe) - oh my god! Some changes: all the Icelandic þ's have turned into t's or h's in Faroese it seems like often what is a f inside a word in Icelandic becomes a v in Faroese -leysa in Faroese is the -laus ending in Icelandic (which is the -less ending in English), ex. Faroese endaleysum (endless), Icelandic endalaus Faroese has the -lig ending on adjectives (English -ly), which is common in Swedish. Icelandic on the other hand has -leg more common, and -leg also appears in Norwegian. (Icelandic "venjuleg" versus the Faroese "vanlig", to mean common/regular - vanlig is the same in Swedish.) Edit: Thinking about it a little more, I also feel like Faroese has a lot less word phrases (by this I mean two or three words that are phrases and have special or changed meanings than the words by themselves - often one or more words together with a certain preposition) than Icelandic. This also makes it easier to read. This is just off the top of my head though. If you know about Icelandic spelling history and pronunciation, these changes make even more sense, since in Icelandic ég was also spelt like eg for a small period of time and f at certain times is pronounced like v, and many (or all?) ø in Faroese used to be ö until it went through a spelling change. If you only know Icelandic and English and absolutely zero Scandinavian, you can probably read 60-70% of Faroese. If you know Scandinavian too, you can read more like 95% and the rest of the 5% is almost always picked up by context. That is my experience when reading various things in Faroese including grammar books, websites, newspapers, and fiction novels. However, Scandinavians CANNOT read and make sense of Faroese - they understand only a few words per page, and of course the grammar of Faroese is much closer to Icelandic as well (yes, I have given various Scandinavians Faroese novels to try and make sense of). Faroese does however have indefinite articles (the words "a" and "an"), which Scandinavian has but Icelandic does not. Spoken Faroese is another matter, it sounds more like Norwegian or Swedish than Danish or Icelandic. It would take more practise to be able to understand that, whereas reading is instant understanding. However I have also heard of Icelanders going to the Faroe Islands, speaking a mix of Danish and Icelandic to them, and the Faroers responding in Faroese and everyone understood each other perfectly. Also, based on Faroe Islanders I have met while in Iceland, it only takes a month or two for them to become "totally fluent" in Icelandic. When I only knew Icelandic I couldn't make any sense of spoken Faroese at all, it is much easier now that I know spoken Swedish, however it's still not as easy as reading Faroese. There are only five or so words you might not get instantly (you can still get an idea from the context), and of them "ongan" is the one that if you have read a little of Faroese elsewhere you would learn fast since it is like "no-one" (ingen in Swedish, engin(n) icelandic). I have put in parentheses the words someone in my position might not be able to understand exactly based on Icelandic, English, or Scandinavian, when they haven't seen Faroese before (ignoring that some of these are understandable from context): Hjúnini Dursley, maðurin og konan, som búðu í Privet gøtu nummar 4, vóru (errin) um at kunna siga, at tey vóru púra vanlig folk, og takk fyri tað. Tey vóru tey seinastu, tú hevði (væntað) fóru at vera við í nøkrum, sum var løgið ella óvanligt, ti tey tóku ikki undir við (sovorðnum) (tvætli), so einfalt var tað. Maðurin var sjóri í fyritøkuni Grunnings, sum gjørdi borar. Hann var stórur og tjúkkur maður við næstan ongum hálsi, sjálvt um hann hevði eitt (ógvuliga) stórt yvir(skegg). Konan var (kløn) og ljóshærd og hevði næstan tvær (ferðir) so langa háls sum onnur, og tað var (hent), ti hon brúkti nógva tíð at (toyggja) seg inn yvir stikini í (urta)garðinum at vita, hvat hendi inni há grannunum. Tey áttu ein son, sum (æt) Dudley, og (ongan) (hildu) tey vera so (óføran) (knassa) sum hann. (you can get the audio for this text here at some site that collects short recordings for the beginning of Harry Potter in all the languages: http://arts.ucalgary.ca/lrc/home/celebrating-multilingualism -through-harry-potter/harry-potter-editions ) I will also add that for me as a learner, I studied Icelandic for about two years and then stopped studying Icelandic in order to passively study Swedish for six months - when I look at Faroese, it is actually easier for me to read than Icelandic despite never having studied Faroese. Some of the more confusing sentence structure in Icelandic isn't done in Faroese (anymore?) for example, and Faroese is as if they took out all the Icelandic words I don't know and replaced them with Scandinavian words I do know. To be honest, I think reading Faroese is even easier than reading Swedish for me too (since in Swedish I get a lot by context and not actually by already all the words, with Faroese I already know all the words). And finally, regarding Icelandic and Scandinavian, speakers of one can sort of understand the other without having studied (older Icelandic might be easier for them to read) but it is more like "some sentences you completely understand but many are nonsense". They pick it up much faster than English speakers thanks to a larger shared vocabulary etc. My wife who is native in Swedish and studied Icelandic for over a year, in the beginning she could understand much more than I could when I was beginning of course (I didn't know any other languages either, she knows German too) but as it is now, where I have studied about two years and she has studied at least one (and she has had much more native-interaction than me, and is a grammar nerd where I am not), my understanding of Icelandic is still much better than hers. However she can sometimes get specifics or vocabulary that I don't know still. The same goes for Faroese only moreso, if there are words I don't know she practically always can guess them correctly from Norwegian or something, whereas in Icelandic it might be half-and-half where if I can't get them she also can't get them. I have spoken to Scandinavians learning Icelandic, both my wife and some Norwegians said absolutely not could they just jump into an advanced course on Icelandic (taught and written entirely in Icelandic, as all those courses are) or pick up an Icelandic paper and understand it (even though my wife says "with simple texts (maybe meaning shared-vocabulary texts) I thought I couldn't understand it at first, but then I realized if I thought about it I could, however the grammar is very different (more complicated) and anyone who says learning Icelandic is super easy thanks to (only) Scandinavian is lying". However there were a lot who just jumped right into advanced courses anyway, and I have heard a lot of Norwegians try to say that they can read Icelandic just fine without ever having seen it before (I highly doubt that). I have no idea how they did in their courses though, because there were no Scandinavians in mine when I took advanced courses. Similarly for Icelanders, they can't understand Scandinavian without having studied, and since most of them forget all their Danish once they get out of school, there you go... Also, some reading I was doing (not sure if this is actually true) said that textbooks for the Faroese to read Icelandic are made/sponsored by the Icelandic language board (even though they are written in Faroese), and the reason why there are none in Icelandic to learn Faroese is because the Faroese language council is too small/busy. If you google "learn Faroese" in Icelandic, the Icelanders only tell each other "just go look at and listen to Faroese and you will learn it, there are no materials to learn it in Icelandic". Edited by kaptengröt on 11 January 2013 at 10:01pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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