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Zecchino1991’s Hebrew Log - TAC 2013 | ||
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| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5258 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 33 of 42 23 May 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged |
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I'm on team Mir. And I have very similar reasons for learning Hebrew. Living in southern California it seems
like a very natural language to learn. Most people here learn it for religious reasons, but there are also lots of Israelis. I know some that live here and hardly ever even speak English because they can just speak Hebrew. By the way, I am sitting in a waiting room at the doctor's office right now and this lady just sat next to me speaking Hebrew as I wrote this. She left before I could say anything though... 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5258 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 34 of 42 28 May 2013 at 11:48pm | IP Logged |
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I was just wondering, I saw someone write this:
איפה הוא היה אתמול כשהייתי צריך אותו? I assume this is supposed to mean, "where was he yesterday when I needed him?" But I thought הייתי צריך could only mean "I would need." You don't say הצטרכתי? 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Golan Bilingual Triglot Newbie Israel Joined 4253 days ago 11 posts - 19 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew*, Biblical Hebrew*, English Studies: Tigrinya | Message 35 of 42 29 May 2013 at 1:07am | IP Logged |
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Both are correct, but "הייתי צריך" is much more common.
It's an isolated form that appears infrequently in old texts, and somehow preserved itself in this specific idiom. If you'll use it in other verbs, it will be odd. Maybe it can fit a poem. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 36 of 42 29 May 2013 at 9:28am | IP Logged |
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I always thought צריך was an adjective, not a verb; or is it simply the participle of
another verb? (then again, aren't all present tense forms derived from what originally was the participle of a verb? It explains why they conjugate as if they were adjectives) Edited by tarvos on 29 May 2013 at 9:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5258 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 37 of 42 29 May 2013 at 10:01am | IP Logged |
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Hmm, I've never thought of it like that before, but I think you're right. I guess it is
an adjective that is used as a verb. But there is a verb that means "to need": להצטרך. That is the verb used for the past and future tenses. I don't know if your book has covered this yet, but normally using היה (or הייתי, היית, etc) before a present tense verb makes a conditional statement, not a past tense. So that's why I was confused by someone using it to mean "I needed." Edited by zecchino1991 on 29 May 2013 at 10:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 38 of 42 29 May 2013 at 10:03am | IP Logged |
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What is that tet doing in that verb? Is it a part of the root?
In any case, re: verbs, what I read was that Biblical Hebrew only marked aspect, perfective and imperfective, and that there were present participles serving a function separately. Aspect indicated only if an action was completed (perfective) or not (imperfective), but these were formed in the same way as we form the tenses now (the aspect didn't indicate a temporal point in time, just completion). When Biblical Hebrew was reinterpreted to become Modern Hebrew, these meanings shifted, and the participle took on the role of the present, the imperfective became the future (it's not completed --> action in the future), the perfective became the past tense. That explains why present-tense conjugation is so minor compared to past or future tense. However, someone versed in Biblical Hebrew (which I am not at ALL) should correct me if this is not so. Edited by tarvos on 29 May 2013 at 10:12am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| zecchino1991 Senior Member United States facebook.com/amyybur Joined 5258 days ago 778 posts - 885 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew, Russian, Arabic (Written), Romanian, Icelandic, Georgian | Message 39 of 42 29 May 2013 at 10:12am | IP Logged |
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להצטרך is the התפעל (reflexive) form of the root צ-ר-ך. Certain consonants (ס, ש, צ, ז)
switch places with the ת in this conjugation. So for example, the hitpael form of ס-כ-ל (to watch) is not התסכל as would be expected, but הסתכל. In addition to that, the ת adopts the properties of the first consonant in the root. So if the first letter in the root was ז, the ת would become a ד, because ז is voiced. The letter צ used to be a pharyngealized /s/, rather than /ts/ as it is now, and ט was a pharyngealized /t/, so the ת has to change to ט when the root starts with צ. Also, that is very interesting about the verbs. I did not know that! Thanks. Edited by zecchino1991 on 29 May 2013 at 10:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4707 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 40 of 42 29 May 2013 at 10:15am | IP Logged |
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Aha. That explains that part, I haven't really got that far into verb conjugation in
Hebrew yet (I know the binyan and have seen some examples, though). I will study some Hebrew on the train back home tonight, but Assimil covers explanations of the binyanim VERY POORLY, so whenever I want to research this topic I need my copy of the Routledge Course or my grammar, but I haven't got them here (Assimil is easier to do on the fly and the dialogues are more interesting). I would also like to refer to my previous post about verb tenses. Also, I think in general they indicated future/past like they do now (because completed implies it is in the past), but you could use a vav-consecutive to reverse the tense. How that works I don't know. What I also don't know is if these constructions are now grammatically speaking just past/present/future tenses, or whether they still only indicate the aspect and the participle, but have taken on this temporal meaning semantically (there is a difference, because of the formation). In Russian you have the strange situation that present-tense conjugations of a perfective verb actually imply future tense semantically (even though the forms are identical to how any other verb would be constructed in the present were it an imperfective verb). The only actual future tense occurs with imperfective verbs. However, semantically the meaning of a present-tense conjugation for a perfective verb is of course a future. Edited by tarvos on 29 May 2013 at 10:46am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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