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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| lengua Senior Member United States polyglottery.wordpre Joined 6684 days ago 549 posts - 595 votes  Studies: French, Italian, Spanish, German | Message 25 of 99 09 October 2006 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
The Mandarin example is logical though, since the different forms of Chinese have as about much in common with each other as the Romance languages. People say Chinese because they don't know any better, but it would be about as accurate as saying speakers of Fr,Gr,It,Sp,Pt, and so forth spoke "Latin". I'll heartily admit that when I didn't know there were different Ch languages contained for some reason under the global Ch umbrella, I said Chinese. After all, it isn't the sort of thing you'd learn in a US high school. But when I did find out, I began to differentiate between Mandarin and Cantonese (though of course there are others as well). The insincerity equivalent of calling French Francais in an English environment wouldn't be saying "I'm learning Mandarin" instead of "I'm learning Chinese", but saying "I'm learning Pǔtōnghuà", or the other ways Mandarin is referred to by people speaking in fully Mandarin conversations. It isn't pompous to learn the proper way of saying something in your language - rather, I'd consider it pompous to become informed, and then to choose to disregard the information. Daristani, that reminds me of people saying "I speak Francais", or "I learned Espanol in high school", or speaking about geography and suddenly pronouncing Mexico as "MeHico". :^) Edited by lengua on 09 October 2006 at 7:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 26 of 99 09 October 2006 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | |||||
My definition of pompousness is not information, but context-based. I try to avoid deliberately using words the person I talk to may or may not know. If I start learning Mandarin some day, I'll be telling my hair-dresser (oops, barber) that I am learning Chinese and let her (him) ask for more information. "Farsi" has a somewhat rarified academic ring to it, but it is part of the English language. There is nothing wrong with using it in this forum; while saying "I'm studying Farsi" may raise some eyebrows, it is not the same as saying "I'm studying Français". The latter is simply not English, the former is. Edited by frenkeld on 09 October 2006 at 9:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Frisco Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6856 days ago 380 posts - 398 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Italian, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 27 of 99 09 October 2006 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Right on. That's exactly it. I've always been irritated by people using the foreign language's word for their language in English just because. I'm a member of a Norwegian language Yahoo group and I constantly see people saying things like, "I've been studying Norsk for 3 months". Ugh. I'm sure some people think it's cute, but I'm a total curmudgeon on the issue. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6825 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 28 of 99 09 October 2006 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
Actually, Farsi is NOT English. It's Persian. "Farsi" is how you say "Persian" in Persian. Farsi = Français = Deutsch = Espanol 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 29 of 99 09 October 2006 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's not a matter of origin, it's a matter of usage - languages borrow foreign words and synonyms are allowed. Whether the word "Farsi" is part of English is something you check in a dictionary. The rest is an argument about register, style, and even personal preferences. Edited by frenkeld on 09 October 2006 at 11:20pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Alijsh Tetraglot Senior Member Iran jahanshiri.ir/ Joined 6622 days ago 149 posts - 167 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Persian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: German, Italian | Message 30 of 99 09 October 2006 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I changed all must's to should. Seems must is too imperative and thus offending. I'm afraid but I meant no rudeness.
Saying Persian instead of Farsi is a matter of correctness and has nothing to do with personal preference. But if you like to say Farsi while you know the true story then it becomes personal preference. Say Farsi when you also say Deutsch, français, italiano, español, nihongo, ruski, norsk, nederlands, etc. Finding Farsi in English dictionaries does not justify the wrong usage. I told the true story. You can follow my advice or ignore it. It's totally up to you. *** Dear non-English native speakers who read this post, please pay attention to correctly calling your language in other languages or one day it's considered personal prefence to say it to be called the right way. Edited by Alijsh on 09 October 2006 at 10:56pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6943 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 31 of 99 09 October 2006 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Alijsh, my original post came out more strident than it needed to be. My apologies for that.
"Persian" is probably a more commonly used word in English than "Farsi", but I am not arguing against that. My main point is that the word "Farsi" does not have the same status in English as "Français" or "Deutsch", so I didn´t and still don´t agree with the logic of your argument, although I should´ve argued with more grace. Edited by frenkeld on 10 October 2006 at 7:07am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Alijsh Tetraglot Senior Member Iran jahanshiri.ir/ Joined 6622 days ago 149 posts - 167 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Persian*, Spanish, French, English Studies: German, Italian | Message 32 of 99 10 October 2006 at 10:33am | IP Logged | |||||
Dear Admin, As you will read, The Academy of the Persian Language has rejected any usage of the word Farsi instead of Persian/Persa/Persan/Persisch in the Western languages. I'm sure you respect the pronouncement of Academy. All Iranians don't know what they do by calling it Farsi in other languages. It's obvious. They are not language-literate and don't understand such things. Persian is the word you hear among language-literate (including linguists) people. Anyway, I think Persian (Farsi) is the right pattern to follow in your pages. but don't write Farsi (Persian) which makes the situation even worse. If you care, calling it Farsi offends language-literate Iranians. It has many reasons. Firstly, because it's simply incorrect. but some put up other convincing reasons as well, including political games. The issue is more serious than you think. If you google "Persian or Farsi" you'll see it's of great importance to language-literate Iranians how their language is called. For example at here: http://no-more-farsi.50webs.com/ In this page you find a section called "US Library of Congress Country Studies" I like to write you some of things I found in those pages: *** In English, however, this language has always been known as "Persian" ('Persane' in French and 'Persisch' in German'). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use 'Farsi' to identify their language in English and the word became commonplace in English-speaking countries. *** The Academy of the Persian Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word "Farsi" instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The first paragraph of the pronouncement states: "PERSIAN has been used in a variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing 'Persian' to 'Farsi' is to negate this established important precedence. Changing 'Persian' to 'Farsi' may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may well be the intention of some Farsi users…" Fortunately all International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g. VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use "Persian Service", in lieu of the incorrect "Farsi Service." That is also the case for the American Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian Language and Literature, and several American and European notable universities. Some mistakably believe that, in English, the official language of Iran should be called "Farsi," while the language spoken in Tajikistan or Afghanistan should be labeled as "Dari," and "Persian" should be utilized to refer to all of them! However, the difference between the Persian spoken in Iran, Afghanistan, or Tajikistan is not significant and substantial enough to warrant such a distinction and classification. Consider the following case. An Egyptian and a Qatari engage in a conversation in Arabic. They will encounter a great deal of difficulties in comprehending each other. Despite this fact, however, the language used in their conversation is referred to as "Arabic." No one will even attempt to classify their respective dialects separately and refer to them as "Qatari" and "Egyptian"! On the other hand, Persians, Tajiks or Afghans can converse in Persian and easily understand each other. Then, why should their dialects be classified separately and referred to by different names? In English, usage of "Farsi" in place of "Persian," that has been common since 1980s, is as inaccurate and odd as using "Farsi Gulf" instead of "Persian Gulf." *** Historically, the word "Persian" has been used as a reference to and as an attribute of many things and issues related to Iranians; but of all, two are of greater significance: 1- a nation with almost 3000 years of written, documented history (and more than 10,000 years of theoretical/archeological history). 2- a language this nation has been using throughout its history. Calling it Farsi disconnects language from this ancient nation. *** Western propaganda want to hide anything which can show real face of Iranian nation, "Persian" can remind lots of glorious facts to western people (such as Persian Empire, the Great Cyrus, Persian Music, Persian Carpet, Persian Cat, Aryan race (except Americans) and so on) . You know all things about Iran's nuclear dispute, Bush is an eager beaver to attack Iran, propaganda is the best way to make Americans agree with war and "Persian" is a disturbing word. *** Three main groups use the word Fârsi instead of Persian while speaking English: non-Iranians who are somewhat familiar with the country and its culture; second-generation Iranians who know some Persian, and Iranians, including some officials, who do not have a sound knowledge about their culture and language. The first two groups find it more comfortable to refer to the language as Fârsi and the third group finds it more politically correct to do so. In either case they do not do justice when they try to change the name of this language in English. *** In spite of this, we unfortunately witness yet another usage of "Farsi" instead of "Persian" in English writings on a daily occurrence. This happens mostly by the Iranians living in The USA; while they answer questions about languages that they know in their application forms for jobs or university Courses. I suspect that they even feel gratified to realize that "The known word of Farsi" can now be used and is a usual occurrence in the English language. If they only knew that the word "Farsi" has no background in English language and its relationship to the identity of Persian (Iranian) Civilization and Culture that is reflected in phrases such as " Persian Literature" and "Persian art" and "Persian Poetry", is not clear at all, they would find themselves damaging irreparably the fame and cultural status of Persia (Iran). We should, in order to protect our literature and ancient cultural credibility in the west, strictly avoid using the word " Farsi" and instead use the same old and well-known word of "Persian" and to realize that usage of "Farsi" instead of "Persian" is the negligence of our national interests. Edited by Alijsh on 14 October 2006 at 1:22am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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