Hungarian OR Finnish - please help! (Specific Languages) Language Learning Forum

Hungarian OR Finnish - please help!
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Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages

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Serpent
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Message 33 of 64

26 December 2007 at 1:12pm | IP Logged

bellumgero wrote:

I was especially impressed by the unimaginable transformation of the Russian word "vorobey" (sparrow) in Finnish-"varpunen". (!) :)

Actually nen is a diminutive suffix, so vorobey just transformed into varpu which is more similar :) Sometimes it's used without the suffix btw.
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Hencke
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Message 34 of 64

27 December 2007 at 12:19am | IP Logged

bela_lugosi wrote:

Some examples of the Russian loanwords in modern Finnish:
...
porukka - poruka (guarantee)
...
As those of you who know some Finnish may have noticed, the meanings of some words have changed, but the root of each loan word is evident. :)

Yes indeed, except for that one. How on earth did that supposed origin of "guarantee" come to mean "(group of) people" which is what "porukka" means in Finnish?
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Hencke
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Message 35 of 64

27 December 2007 at 12:42am | IP Logged

bellumgero wrote:

For all Finnish aficionados I attach the lyrics of the famous Finnish polka "Loituma".

OK, let's see then. I noticed a handful of Germanic loanwords (from Swedish mainly, or perhaps exclusively) when listening through it, but with the text in hand I guess I'll be able to come up with a few more. I picked these out entirely "by ear" so I could be wrong on one or two:

And yes, some of these words are rather well disguised but note that this rendering in the Savo dialect tends to disguise them even more in some cases.

bellumgero wrote:

Nuapurista (neighbor) kuulu se polokan(polka) tahti (EDIT: I missed this one: Sv.takt, rhythm - etymologically probably related to "tact")
jalakani pohjii kutkutti.
Ievan äiti se tyttöösä vahti (Sv. vakta, watch, guard, keep an eye on)
kun myö tanssimme (dance) laiasta laitaan.
Salivili hipput tupput täppyt
äppyt tipput hilijalleen.

Ievan suu oli vehnäsellä (Sv. vete, wheat)
ko immeiset onnee toevotti.
Peä oli märkänä jokaisella
ja viulu (Sv. fiol, violin) se vinku ja voevotti.
Ei tätä poikoo (Sv.pojke *, boy) märkyys haittaa
sillon ko laskoo laiasta laitaan.
Salivili hipput.
(* It is claimed that "pojke" was actually loaned from Finnish "poika" into Swedish, but I read somewhere that it was loaned into Finnish earlier still, from the Scandinavian "påg")

Ievan äiti se kammarissa (sv. kammare, room cf. chamber)
virsiä veisata huijjuutti,
kun tämä poika naapurissa
ämmän tyttöä nuijjuutti.
Eikä tätä poikoo ämmät haittaa
sillon ko laskoo laiasta laitaan.
Salivili.

Siellä oli lystiä (Sv. lust, fun cf. lust) soiton jäläkeen
sain minä kerran sytkyyttee.
Kottiin ko mäntii ni ämmä se riitelj
ja Ieva jo alako nyyhkyytteek. (Sv. snyfta, sob)
Minä sanon Ievalle mitäpä se haittaa
laskemma vielähi laiasta laitaa.
Salivili.

Muorille (Sv. mor, mother) sanon jotta tukkee suusi
en ruppee sun terveyttäs takkoomaa.
Terveenä peäset ku korjoot luusi
ja määt siitä murjuus makkoomaa.
Ei tätä poikoo hellyys haittaa
ko akkoja huhkii laiasta laitaan.
Salivili.
...

Edited by Hencke on 27 December 2007 at 2:33pm
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foram
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Message 36 of 64

27 December 2007 at 5:23am | IP Logged

Woah! It's so crazy what you did, Hencke, because I really was not expecting any Germanic training wheels when learning Finno-Ugric. I don't speak Swedish but I pretend it's German and it was a great relief to see those cognates.
The Bjornflaten article and bellumgero's and bela_lugosi's Slavic posts were also very interesting. Been looking at them for a while as this is such cheating on learning europe's hardest language [west of the black sea].

Does anyone know if the noun cases are transferable between Finnish and Hungarian? I don't think they have the same English names. I know the verb tenses aren't.
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bellumgero
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Message 37 of 64

27 December 2007 at 10:08am | IP Logged

2 Serpent
Thanx for the clarification. Yes, indeed, "varpu" and "vorobey" look similar because in Russian "vorobey" sounds "varbey" when pronounced fast. And "varbey" is almost "varpu." :)
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bellumgero
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Message 38 of 64

27 December 2007 at 10:14am | IP Logged

2 Hencke
Impressive list! So Finnish does have quite a lot loanwords from Swedish! That's good news. Do you have Finnish background? 'Cos it's pretty hard to learn that difficult language for a person speaking a Germanic language like you.
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PolyglotNZ
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Message 39 of 64

27 December 2007 at 4:15pm | IP Logged

foram wrote:

Does anyone know if the noun cases are transferable between Finnish and Hungarian? I don't
think they have the same English names. I know the verb tenses aren't.

The Finnish cases are:

Nominative - talo (house)
Genitive - talon (of (a) house)
Partitive - taloa (house)
Inessive - talossa (in (a) house)
Elative - talosta (from (a) house)
Illative - taloon (into (a) house
Adessive - talolla (at (a) house)
Ablative - talolta (from (a) house)
Allative - talolle (to (a) house)
Essive - talona (as (a) house)
Translative - taloksi (to (a) house

Plus the abessive, comitative and instructive, but I am not sure how productive these endings are.

The Hungarian cases are:

Nominative - ház (house)
Dative - háznak (to (a) house)
Accusative - házat (house)
Inessive - házban (in (a) house)
Elative - házból (from (a) house)
Illative - házba (to (a) house)
Adessive - háznál (at (a) house)
Ablative - háztól (from (a) house)
Allative - házhoz (toward (a) house)
Sublative - házra (onto (a) house)
Superlative - házon (on (a) house)
Delative - házról (off (a) house)
Instrumental - házzal (with (a) house)
Translative - házzá ((turning) into (a) house)
Causal-final - házért (for the purpose of (a) house)
Essive-formal - házként (as (a) house)
Terminative - házig (up to (a) house)
Distributive - házanként (per house)
Sociative - házastul ((together) with (a) house)

Plus essive-modal, temporal, distributive-temporal, sociative and locative which are less productive.

Foram, I hope this gives you a quick look of the cases in both languages.

Cheers!

Edited by PolyglotNZ on 28 December 2007 at 4:21am
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Wilma
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Message 40 of 64

12 January 2008 at 12:53pm | IP Logged

Hencke wrote:

bela_lugosi wrote:

Yes indeed, except for that one. How on earth did that supposed origin of "guarantee" come to mean "(group of) people" which is what "porukka" means in Finnish?

I have just recently read an explanation to this - here is what I remember of it:

"Krugovaja poruka"/ "collective guarantee" (I'm not sure about spelling) has been an important social concept in Russia throughout its history. A whole village or in Sovjet Union times e.g workers on a collective farm have been collectively responsible for various things. The meaning has indeed changed and also kind of shifted.. As Hencke mentioned, Finnish (informal) word "porukka" just means "a group of people".

Edited by Wilma on 12 January 2008 at 4:33pm

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