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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 41 of 109 21 March 2014 at 6:02pm | IP Logged |
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Français
Hier c'était la journée de la Francophonie. A vrai dire, je n’ai pas beaucoup entendu en parler, et là où j’habite je n’ai trouvé aucune manifestation culturelle ou littéraire pour fêter la journée. Par contre, il y a eu quelques articles dans la presse, souvent pessimistes par rapport au futur du français en face de l’influence de l’anglais, notamment à travers de la culture populaire américaine. Voici un exemple typique d’un article du Figaro. Italiano Qualche giorno fa ho terminato da leggere Il Nome della Rosa. Certo, non ne ho letto tutti i giorni, perché leggo sempre tre o quattro libri in parallelo, ma sono contento d’essere arrivato alla fine. D’altra parte ho cominciato a leggere degli articoli scritti in Italiano in internet. Ieri ho trovato quest’articolo chi parla di un “referendum” organizzato nella regione di Veneto per domandare l’indipendenza del Vento dall’Italia, cioè costituire di nuovo la Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia. L’articolo fa allusione agli altri movimenti indipendentisti in Europe, come per esempio nella Catalogna, la Scozia e anche la Crimea. Credo che quest’ultima comparazione sia un po’ pericolosa, sebbene i media russi ne parlano. In ogni caso, non è veramente un referendum, anzi una consultazione di una pagina internet. Ciononostante mostra come in Europa i movimenti indipendentisti hanno cresciuto in popolarità questi ultimi anni, siano Italiani, catalani, baschi o scozzesi. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 42 of 109 26 March 2014 at 5:18pm | IP Logged |
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Romontsch sursilvan
Oz haiel jeu empustau tres cudischs dalla Lia Rumantscha: ina introducziun alla litteratura contemporana romontscha, ina collecziun da posias de Giachen Hasper Muoth ed ina collecziun da storias d’Ursicin G.G. Derungs. Jeu sperel ch’ils cudischs arriveschin in quater-tschun dis. Giachen Hasper Muoth, che ei naschius nel 1844 e morts nel 1906 ei consideraus il poet “naziunal” dil sursilvan. Sia poesia pli famosa ei “Al Pievel Romontsch” culla quala leva destadar ses cumpatriots romontschs ad esser cunscients dalla situaziun dil lungatg e dalla cultura romontscha ed anzi ad esser loschs dil romontsch. Giachen Hasper Muoth ei staus in dils fundaturs dalla Societad Retoromantscha, la pli veglia societad linguistica dil romontsch. Today I have ordered three books from La Lia Rumantscha: an introduction to contemporary Romansh literature, a collection of the poetry of Giachen Hasper Muoth and a collection of short stories by Ursicin G.G. Derungs. I hope the books will arrive in four-five days. Giachen Hasper Muoth (1844-1906) is considered like a "national poet" of Sursilvan. His most famous poem, "To the Romansh People", is meant as a wake-up call to his compatriots to be aware of the situation of the language and culture and to be proud of their language. He was one of the founding fathers of the Romansh Society, the oldes linguistic society for Romansh. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 43 of 109 27 March 2014 at 2:51pm | IP Logged |
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Yesterday I spent some time listening to Radio Romontsch and mostly to people speaking Vallader, the second most important idiom in terms of numbers of speakers. I struggle a lot more to understand Vallader than Sursilvan, which is the dialect I am most used to, but after half an hour or so I got more used to it and was able to get more of the meaning. I guess I can understand about 80 percent of spoken Sursilvan, but around 60 percent of Vallader. However, I guess that if I spent as much time with texts and audio in Vallader as I do with Sursilvan, I should be able to understand both equally well.
The fact is that although there are important differences e.g. in phonology and in morphology, they are mutually intelligible if you make an effort and are aware of the main differences. The same goes for the three other idioms as well, Sutsilvan, Surmiran and Putér. Although stretching it a bit, I would say it can be compared to the relation between the Scandinavian languages. If one imagines that there were 40.000 speakers of Swedish, 30.000 Danish speakers, 20.000 Norwegian bokmål speakers and 5.000 nynorsk speakers, all living within a small geographical area, but each one with their own written language, you get the picture of what the Romansh situation is. On top of that though, you would have to put an intra-Scandinavian written standard, which no one speaks, but which you have to learn to read and write. If you turn the metaphor around, and each Romansh idiom was spoken by millions of people in a large geographical area, they would probably have the status of languages rather than variations of the same language. To return to Sursilvan and Vallader, one of the things that makes Vallader more difficult to understand for me is the existence of vowel sounds that do not exist in Sursilvan, in particular ü and ö (pronounced more or less the same as in German. The ü sound in Vallader normally corresponds to an i sound in Sursilvan, and the ö to o or diphthong ie . Furthermore, initial [k], written c in Sursilvan is often palatalised in Vallader, giving /ch/. Another thing to get used to is that in Sursilvan the negation is “buc” and goes after the verb, while in Vallader it is “nu” going before the verb. There are of course many other differences as well, including in vocabulary, which makes mutual understanding difficult if you are not used to one or the other idiom. Just to illustrate the difference, here is a couple of sentences from one of the fables of Aesop, first in Sursilvan, then in Vallader and finally an English translation: L'uolp era puspei inagada fomentada. Cheu ha ella viu sin in pégn in tgaper che teneva in toc caschiel en siu bec. Quei gustass a mi, ha ella tertgau, ed ha clamau al tgaper: "Tgei bi che ti eis! Sche tiu cant ei aschi bials sco tia cumparsa, lu eis ti il pli bi utschi da tuts". "La vuolp d’eira darcheu üna jada fomantada. Qua ha’la vis sün ün pin ün corv chi tgnaiva ün toc chaschöl in seis pical. Quai am gustess, ha’la pensà, ed ha clomà al corv: „Che bel cha tü est! Scha teis chant es uschè bel sco tia apparentscha, lura est tü il plü bel utschè da tuots." “The fox was hungry once again. There he saw a raven upon a fir holding a piece of cheese in its beak. I could just eat that, it thought, and shouted at the raven: "You are so beautiful! If your singing is as beautiful as your looks, you are the most beautiful of all birds." 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 44 of 109 31 March 2014 at 3:45pm | IP Logged |
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Català
Aquest matí he llegit un articulo aparegut al Periódico de Catalunya que parla d’Anne Hidalgo, una espanyola que serà alcaldessa de París, havent guanyat las eleccions municipals celebrades aquest diumenge a França. Anne Hidalgo és filla d’immigrants d’Andalusia, i va arribar a França quan tenia tres anys. Serà la primera dona que dirigeix la ciutat de París i una de les poques dones que dirigeixen una gran capital. Hidalgo ha estat primera adjunta del alcalde Bernard Delanoë que ha governat Paris des de 2001. Tot i que ha viscut molts anys a França, sembla que li agrada molt la cultura d’Espanya i se sent de dues nacionalitats. Anna Hidalgo no és l’única personalitat política francesa amb origen espanyol. El ministre d’Interior de l’actual govern, Manuel Valls, va néixer a Barcelona encara que els seus pares ja vivien a França. La mare de Manuel Valls era una suïssa Italianòfona, i Valls és perfectament quadrilingüe (francès, català, castellà i italià). Avui en la premsa francesa especulen que Valls pugui ser el pròxim primer ministre de França si el President de la República decideix far una remodelació del Govern. Français Comme on pouvait s’attendre, aujourd’hui les médias français parlent surtout du deuxième tour des élections municipales, et à part les analyses à droite et à gauche de ce que les résultats signifient pour le Président de la République etc., la victoire d’Anne Hidalgo, fille d’immigrants espagnols, à Paris, mérite aussi l’attention de la presse. Ainsi, Le Figaro a publié un article avec le titre : l'Espagne salue Hidalgo, la «femme andalouse» de Paris, » citant différents journaux espagnols qui portent cette nouvelle à la Une. Ils remarquent que Mme Hidalgo est parfaitement bilingue et une lectrice avide d’Alberti et de García Lorca tout en ayant embrassé la culture et la langue française. In the Catalan version of "El Periódico de Catalunya", this morning I read an article about Anne Hidalgo, the newly elected mayor of Paris, who is of Spanish (Andalusian) origin, having moved to France with her parents when she was three years old. She is the first female mayor of Paris and one of a limited number of women to run a big city in the world. As one could expect, the local elections in France dominate the French media, and they also make a point of highlighing Ms. Hidalgo's Spanish origin, noting that she is perfectly bilingual, having maintained her Spanish roots while embracing French culture and language. Actually, there are other notable French politicians of Spanish origin. The current minister of the Interior, Manuel Valls, is of Catalan origin, as well as Swiss, actually, as his mother came from the Italian-speaking part of Switzerland. Thus, Valls speaks four languages, French, Italian, Catalan and Spanish, and if one is to believe the speculations in the French press today, he could become the next Prime Minister if President Hollande decides to make a reshuffle. Edited by Ogrim on 31 March 2014 at 4:28pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5335 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 45 of 109 31 March 2014 at 4:55pm | IP Logged |
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I simply love reading your log. I love the content, from which I always learn something new and interesting,
and I am really impressed that you have the stamina to write posts with such high quality in your target languages. You are truly an inspiration. On a personal note I was happy to see how much Catalan I understood, but a little dejected that my understanding of Romansch was not anywhere near as high. Thank you for some really great posts. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 46 of 109 31 March 2014 at 5:30pm | IP Logged |
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Solfrid Cristina, thank you very much for your really kind words. It is good to know that some people find my posts interesting.
My choice of "themes" is often based on an impulse, as is the choice of language, although I do try to vary a bit. It had been a while since I'd written anything in Catalan, so I wanted to have a go at it today, and this morning it tied in nicely with the French elections. I guess one criteria I often use for posting about a topic is that it is somewhat related to languages or literature. I work quite a bit on my short texts in Catalan and Romansh, and of course I look up words and consult a grammar now and then if I am not sure about what is correct. I do not pretend to write flawless texts, but I want them to be as good as possible. With French and Spanish it is different of course, as I am used to write a lot in these languages and use them on a daily basis. Don't feel bad about finding Romansh difficult to understand. It is quite different from Italian, Spanish or French, and not only have some specific phonetic developments made it harder to recognise the common root of many words, but its geographic isolation and the influence of Germanic have also contributed to Romansh having many words that are not shared with the other Romance languages. It is true that you get a lot for free if you decide to learn Romansh knowing two or three other Romance languages, but you still need to study it as a separate language and learn a lot of new words in order to fully understand it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 47 of 109 01 April 2014 at 3:59pm | IP Logged |
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Español
Resulta que las especulaciones en la prensa francesa de las que escribí ayer eran verdaderas, y ayer a las ocho de la tarde, el presidente Hollande ha declarado que Manuel Valls será el nuevo primer ministro de Francia. Como era de esperar, una gran noticia para la prensa española, que no ha faltado en ponerla en portada esta mañana. Así, La Vanguardia, periódico de Barcelona que se publica en castellano, resalta que Valls es un primer ministro francés de Barcelona, culé y que habla catalán. Culé es como se llama en catalán a un forofo del Barça, aunque La Vanguardia también admite que Manuel Valls “tiene el corazón algo dividido”, porque también es un aficionado del Paris Saint Germain. No voy a entrar en una evaluación de la política de Valls o del gobierno francés actual, éste no es el sitio, pero tengo que decir que me parece bien que el nuevo primer ministro hable cuatro idiomas, entre ellos el catalán. Romontsch sursilvan Oz sil Radio Romontsch hai jeu tedlau ch’ins ha cattau ina fossa dils temps romans a Cuira cu ina inscripziun romontscha. Quei vulevi dir ch’ins tschintschava romontsch fa 2000 onns! Aber oz ei igl emprem avrel, ed ei setracta secapescha d’ina sgnocca d’avrel. Quei fuss ina veritabla sensaziun sch’ils romans tschintschassien romontsch gia el secund tschentaner. Ina meglier nova eisi che la televiziun nazionala svizra hagi mess sil mercau ina applicaziun gratuit per iPad, in “videobook” sulla storia dalla Svizra, e che quel “cudisch interactiv” existeschi ussa sin romontsch. Igl ei ina versiun sin “rumantsch grischun”, aber jeu tertgel ch’igl ei fetg interessants. Il sulet problem sche jeu legel bia sin rumantsch grischun ei ch’igl ei pli grev de scriver correctamein sin romontsch sursilvan. Les dues versiuns sesemeglian, aber ei dat differenzas fetg impurtontas denter ellas. So the speculations I referred to yesterday were true, and Manuel Valls is the new prime minister of France. The Spanish press has made a big story out of this, like in the Barcelona-based newspaper La Vanguardia, which notes that the new PM is from Catalan capital, is a fan of Barça and that he speaks Catalan. I'm not going to discuss politics here, but I think it is sort of nice to see a French PM who speaks four languages, including Catalan. Turning to Romansh, on the radio this morning the had a story about the discovery of a grave from Roman times with an inscription in Romansh. However, it was obviously an April's fool. It would be quite some sensation indeed if the Romans were speaking Romansh already in the second century. What was not an April's fool was the news that the Swiss national broadcaster has launched an app for iPad about the history of Switzerland (a so-called videobook), and that it is available in Romansh. I've already downloaded it. It is written in Rumantsch Grischun, the common standard. I don't have big problems understanding it, the only worry is that if I read a lot in RG, it will affect my writing correctly in Sursilvan. They are very similar, but there are at the same time big differences. I just have to be careful and make good use of my Sursilvan dictionary. Edited by Ogrim on 01 April 2014 at 4:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Ogrim Heptaglot Senior Member France Joined 4640 days ago 991 posts - 1896 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, French, Romansh, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Catalan, Latin, Greek, Romanian | Message 48 of 109 11 April 2014 at 4:51pm | IP Logged |
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Romontsch sursilvan
Quella jamna haiel giu bia lavur, e perquei hai jeu buca saviu dedicar bia temps als lungatgs ni a quel Forum. Tuttenina hai jeu legiu il roman “Cara Laura” dad Iso Camartin, e mintgadi teidlel jeu Radio Romontsch – oravontut las novitads, aber era autras emissiuns. Jeu hai bugen ils programs dil pader Clau Lombriser, d’ina vart tracta el da temas fetg interessants, e da l’autra tschontscha el romontsch sursilvan fetg claramein, igl ei buca grev da capir quei ch’el di. Quella jamna ha el tschintschau dil "bargir" - ei era pli allegreivel che quei ch'ei possi parer. Jeu hai era scuviert ch’igl ei pusseivel da leger La Quotidiana sco schurnal sil iPad. La Quotidiana ei il sulet schurnal romontsch, il resultat d’ina fusiun da quater schurnals, denter ils quals Gasetta Romontscha (ch’era sin sursilvan), Fögl Ladin (sin vallader) e La Vousch da Surmeir (surmiran). Perquei datta ei artechels sin tut ils tschun idioms ed era sin rumantsch grischun. Jeu cumprel buc il schurnal mintgadi, aber sche jeu vesel ch’ei detti artechels che jeu vegli leger, lu eisi fetg confortabel da saver cumprar il schurnal cu in “click”. (I've had a lot of work this week, so little time for languages or for posting on this Forum. Still, I have been able to finish a Romans novel called Cara Laura by Iso Camartin, and I listen to Radio Romontsch every day, first and foremost the news, but also other programmes. I like a lot the programmes by Father Clau Lombriser, the themes are very interesting and he speaks sursilvan very clearly so it is easy to understand and follow. This week he had a programme about "crying" - it was actually more fun that it may seem. I have also discovered that it is possible to read La Quotidiana as an e-paper on my iPad. La Quotidiana is the only daily newspaper in Romansh, and a result of the merger of four different papers, each written in a separate idiom. Because of that, in La Quotidiana you have articles in all five idioms as well as in Rumantsch Grischun. I don't buy it every day, but when I see that there are interesting articles, then it is quite nice to be able to buy it with a simple click.) Edit: After posting the above I just discovered that I had used a couple of Catalan words in the text, which I have now corrected. But it goes to show that when you work on similar languages at the same time, there is always a danger of interference, even in writing. I guess my writing skills are becoming slightly better in Romansh than in Catalan, but those little words like prepositions and conjunctions are easy to mix. I will read through three times before I post next time... Edited by Ogrim on 11 April 2014 at 5:08pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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