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Never had classes but have reached a wall | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6594 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 33 of 77 16 December 2013 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I don't believe in discipline. I believe in AJATT.
s_allard, perfect classes are like perfect people. Do you honestly believe there's something suitable for Dutch? Never forget how common your languages are. No offence meant, but the original poster would be kinda like Gulliver. Among beginners you'd be bored out of your mind. Among intermediates (or more precisely people with an intermediate knowledge of grammar) you'll be clueless or at least frustrated (if you even manage to get in - placement tests are usually grammar-heavy, and the language school will be delighted to get you to pay for a beginner class first). Language classes thrive on beginners. Those who do reach the intermediate level in class tend to be those with a foreign spouse, a tempting job offer or just exceptionally motivated. Also, I'm very much willing to believe that in Canada it's common to understand The Other Language but not speak it, and the classes deal with it accordingly (so that a complete newbie would feel lost). But in the UK it's uncommon even with Spanish, let alone Dutch. Edited by Serpent on 16 December 2013 at 3:26pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| pesahson Diglot Senior Member Poland Joined 5725 days ago 448 posts - 840 votes Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 34 of 77 16 December 2013 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's one of my favorite posts by Khatz. I love his style.
I agree. If perfect classes existed, I'd be joining them myself, but in this case they might really be a waste of time and money. I do think however, that Rolf is in need of guidance from someone who knows how to learn. A tutor, maybe a colleague or a friend who learned a language. There's got to be someone in London! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5427 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 35 of 77 16 December 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It seems that class-bashing season is in full swing again. Here is what I said:
"Looking forward, it would seem to me that a good class plus the advice given in this thread is the way to go." I did not say that classes are the only way to learn. If there isn't an appropriate class around, then do something else. As I said, a class can provide structure and discipline that many people find helpful. I did not say that any class is better than nothing. On the subject of classes, people always trot out stories of people who took high school classes for "years" and don't remember a thing. In my book, an hour or two a week in a class of 25 14-year old students hardly qualifies as a serious class. Where I live the learning of French is serious business. If one doesn't qualify for free government-sponsored classes that will take a person from scratch to about B2/C1 in a year, there are plenty of very good courses like a six-week twice a week program for $99, a bargain indeed. That works out to around $7 each two-hour session. And there are four levels of entry. These classes do not prevent one from doing all the things suggested in this thread. Quite the contrary, they are highly recommended to complement the classes. Of course, if there are no good classes around, then you have to make do with what you've got. I note that the OP has lived for two years in the country while learning on his own, with results that we are talking about here. Frankly, I think the situation calls for some good classes. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4530 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 36 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
It would be nice to have some real statistics on the effectiveness of classes. I didn't find my own experiences with classes, and I am confident in my small sample size (~20 people) that most of them didn't either. But I would also say that most of the ~20 people I studied with at various times would not have found self-learning very effective either. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6594 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 37 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
And you didn't reply my question. Do you honestly think such a class exists for Dutch in the UK? Edited by Serpent on 16 December 2013 at 5:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| pesahson Diglot Senior Member Poland Joined 5725 days ago 448 posts - 840 votes Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 38 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm also sometimes tired by radical statements that "classes always suck". I just think in this case it's not what Rolf needs the most. I don't want this to become an off-topic so I'll leave at that. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4906 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 39 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Classes are as good as you make them. You are a self-learner anyway, a class would
just be one more tool in your box. This is a website for self-learners, so it is no surprise that the most common response is to say that classes are rubbish. So, most people I know at HTLAL have learned their language by self study. Of course. But all the people I know in person who speak foreign languages learned them in classes. I can't think of a single exception (besides those who were bilingual from infancy). My sister learned Spanish in an American high school, continued it in college, and is fluent. She learned a bit of French while doing master's work in Antwerp; her courses were all delivered in French, and she took evening classes in French. She is a C1 in French, and is good enough to conduct department meetings at the EU in French with a department of native speakers. But she still takes classes (in Brussels) and can't conceive of any other way to learn it. My brother learned German in high school (in India), continued it in university, and now works for a well-known German airline. He sneers at bothering to use self-learning materials. I have many relatives (of the third cousin variety) who learned their English in school. Of course they improved it by travelling and using it, but the point is how they learned it. I taught at a school in India which ran ESL courses for students mainly from Korea and Vietnam. These students would arrive with almost no English, and would leave school in most cases with academically functional English. My point is that we get a somewhat skewed view of language learning on this website. I couldn't say if we who prefer self-study are in the majority or minority. In my limited experience of the "real world" most people I have met who have learned another language have learned them in classes. Perfect classes don't exist. Nor do perfect self-study resources. Like anything, you get what you put into it. If the OP goes into the right level of class, with the right attitude, then it is more likely than not to be a good experience. Of course, all of the positive examples I have mentioned have been people who have used what they learned extensively. But that is what I mean by getting out what you put in. If you take a class and don't practice what you learn, you've wasted your time.
I agree finding good lessons in Dutch will be harder than in something like French, but if they exist anywhere, they exist in London where the OP is talking about taking lessons. Edited by Jeffers on 16 December 2013 at 5:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5427 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 40 of 77 16 December 2013 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I think that successful language learning is the product of a number of actions and circumstances. Living in the country and interaction with native speakers, the right learning methods and tools such as the 100-word a day writing challenge, tutoring, plenty of media exposure and, of course, some form of formal guidance, possibly in a class. All of these are good and are to be considered.
As for the existence of good Dutch classes in the UK, I don't know. I just don't dismiss them off-hand. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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