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Never had classes but have reached a wall | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5062 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 57 of 77 17 December 2013 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
This is true. No more advice from me. Do what you want. Good luck, Rolf. I hope you find something that works for you. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6397 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 58 of 77 17 December 2013 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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-podcasts: have you checked the link you got to the Dutch team thread? There are some resources there. As I said, while Dutch isn't Spanish, it isn't a native American language spoken by 500 people. "Laura speaks Dutch" seems very popular for example, I remember listening to it some 5+ years ago when I had an intense craving for the sound of Dutch (kinda like chocolate craving haha).
-lyricstraining: you need to choose Dutch at the top. There are fewer songs than in Spanish (heh), but if you use advanced search and include the pending-to-be-approved ones, there's more than it seems. -momentum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29 I'm like you in many ways, I'm just taking advantage of it. For example, I've recently realized that unlike other people, I'm excited about coming back to stuff. I think for many others, if they start a book and then lose momentum, they may never come back to it, or it will feel like a chore. I embrace the book (etc) as an old friend, and I'm usually more excited about resuming than starting. In this case your mistake might be that you keep on trying to review beginner materials. Yes, you clearly have gaps there, but the great thing about beginner grammar is that it's everywhere. Find cool examples and add them to Anki. Make your own exercises. Work with fun content! Colloquial Dutch is bound to be more boring than native materials. Assimil is a bit better (and I'm going to complete the courses I have in a chaotic order), but it will be more enjoyable if you don't force yourself to be consistent. Don't be an enemy to yourself. Don't try to change your whole routine and go from what you enjoy to what you hate. Continue using native materials, just try to work on some grammar here and there. Start with simply asking yourself: would I be able to say it this way? What's unusual here? -speaking of consistency: we have a consistency thread. You're very welcome! I think you need to aim for short sessions at least at first (you remind me on kujichagulia tbh). Try timeboxing/the pomodoro technique. But when you do find momentum, don't restrict yourself and have a list of things to do in Dutch (not a to-do list, just one for knowing your options. if you haven't used a technique/resource for some time, it's easy to forget that it exists). (one more thread by kuji) -maths-brain: i love maths too! and so does emk and many people here, although many others don't. it's very common for maths folks to say they are not wired for languages. I hope you understand that these claims are false in both directions. Both groups of people benefit from non-standard approaches, though. Have you seen the post about "one problem at a time" that I recced a few pages ago? Its author is an engineer :) In language learning, many useful discoveries are made by non-linguists who apply ideas from their own field. I don't mean scientific but practical discoveries. -shadowing: subtitles are useful but your technique is nothing like shadowing. you're basically reading aloud. L2 sound is a must here, written text is not necessary. although reading aloud is also good.
just look around Edited by Serpent on 17 December 2013 at 1:46pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| druckfehler Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4668 days ago 1181 posts - 1912 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Korean Studies: Persian | Message 59 of 77 17 December 2013 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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You might be setting yourself up for failure with your negative attitude (sorry if that sounds harsh). Your resignation that you simply can't work consistently and your conviction that this character trait makes you fail in general are the problem, in my opinion. Guess what, I'm changing my approach all the time and it has not hurt my progress in Korean. However, if I was thinking that "nothing will work unless I study grammar from the most horrible grammar book" and "I really detest doing that, so I won't", I guess I would fail miserably. Are you really sure you want to learn Dutch? (EDIT: What I mean is, apart from a vague wish to know Dutch and speak another language, do you really want to do what it takes to become a Dutch speaker?)
Personally, I think what you need is to 1. stop relying on translation. That's poison. Yes, look up words of you really, really need to, but try to internalise them. The best thing would be to read or watch a lot of easy materials like graded readers (if graded readers don't exist you can read detective fiction or Harry Potter or whatever you're interested in). Don't read an English translation at the same time. You have to be able to bear not knowing every word. Your brain will eventually make sense of them all. 2. use Dutch to communicate. It's perfectly normal that you feel inadequate at first (not even only that, you'll probably feel inadequate for a long time), but if you keep writing something, anything in Dutch your writing and speaking will improve. You could also try to find Dutch people to speak to (although that may be more difficult), the same thing applies. 3. you might notice that you make lots of grammar mistakes and have no idea what you're doing grammar-wise. In that case, read some short, easy grammar explanations on single points that you have noticed are a problem for you. Only learn the grammar you really think you need right now, don't try to cram everything at once (of course that's horrible). I take it that you had French and Spanish classes. Do you now speak these languages? If not, you might want to rethink your "classes will solve everything" approach. Classes can work well, but if you don't feel responsible for your own learning, I wonder if they will help greatly. There are also lots of inadequate classes out there which will only play into your convictions. Edited by druckfehler on 17 December 2013 at 1:17pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6397 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 60 of 77 17 December 2013 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I agree with pretty much everything druckfehler wrote. I wonder about that too, why are you clinging to the Dutch you picked up in the Netherlands? Are you going back there one day? Is there anything specific you want to do that requires Dutch? Is there a language you're more interested in? Even if you drop it now, it will still be a useful experience. You'll know that treating too much as a filler can/will lead to frustration in the long run. If you don't want to learn Dutch, you don't have to! You can also continue using native materials and be content with your passive-only knowledge.
I've also noticed that you're not reading as much as your first post implied. Subtitles and newspapers are great, but try actual books. I'd be bored if I tried to learn the Italian or Polish grammar formally and do exercises, but I've reached a good passive level by watching football and doing LR, and at that point the super challenge started and I'm not that far from 5000 pages in these two languages and wow the improvement has been huge. I find that on their own, listening and reading just develop themselves. But if you do both, eventually you'll be seeing some things so often that you'll be able to produce them, gradually more and more. We've had some nice threads about listening. Reading is often considered a given (unless you're learning Mandarin and want only to speak). But those who start reading early and think it's normal to need to "catch up" with listening...they just don't notice how powerful reading is. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| rolf Senior Member United Kingdom improvingmydutch.blo Joined 5807 days ago 107 posts - 134 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch | Message 61 of 77 17 December 2013 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Yes, I guess I held out hope that language did not require process, blind rule following. I don't follow any such rules in my own native language, and I have zero desire to do so in another. For me, it destroys my love of using a language. For others, it's fascinating. That is definitely not the case with me though.
Of course, if you can read/listen to Dutch, it's hard to imagine you don't have some sense of what nouns, adjectives etc are - even if you have never been to class.[/QUOTE] I know what you mean. I don't like the definitions either but I can get over them, at least at the basic level. At the advanced level, I detest this type of grammar. Yes, I guess I must have some grip of the most basic grammar. But you have to remember that basic Dutch grammar is so incredibly easy. The verb endings in the present tense are so easy I don't have to think about them, merely see if they sound right. I have picked up common simple past verb usage from dialogue. Perfect tense is easy because it's the infinitive. When it gets more complicated, it's like torture for me. And in Dutch you can get away with using the present tense a lot if you just want to talk in basic terms.
Thanks
Thanks so much. I'm going to do all these things. I can see now it is still possible to combine variety with better, more active learning.
Yes, I definitely need to do more writing. I haven't done enough of that. Yes I love Dutch. I lived in Amsterdam for almost two years and want to get back. Learning more Dutch will help me find work there, especially as most Dutch already speak English fairly well. I took French and Spanish in school and reached an active level better than my current Dutch. This is why I think classroom learning will really benefit me. Despite doubts by many, I figure I have almost nothing to lose by trying. My only option for finding Dutch people really is to try to meet them at Meetups and such like, I will try to. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| rolf Senior Member United Kingdom improvingmydutch.blo Joined 5807 days ago 107 posts - 134 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch | Message 62 of 77 17 December 2013 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I have not read that much, you are right. It is very slow going for me, taking maybe half
an hour to read two pages of a novel. For L-R, it's impossible. It actually sends me to sleep, there's nothing I can do about this. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4333 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 63 of 77 17 December 2013 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Have you tried reading with an e-reader and pop-dictionary? I would be surprised if you couldn't read much faster. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5230 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 64 of 77 18 December 2013 at 5:46am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I must confess that I don't understand what this is about. What is blind rule following? And to say "I don't follow any such rules in my own native language, and I have zero desire to do so in another," in my opinion is totally meaningless. How can one speak or write correctly without following rules? With this attitude, learning Dutch is a lost cause. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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