What does "basic fluency" really mean? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

What does "basic fluency" really mean?
Tags: Fluency \| Reading \| Grammar
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

106 messages over 14 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 4 ... 13 14 Next >>

luke
Diglot
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United States
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Message 25 of 106

25 July 2006 at 4:28am | IP Logged

Malcolm wrote:

I don't count forms created through inflection as separate words (be, is, am, are, etc.). However, most new forms created through derivation are fair game in my opinion (happy, unhappy, happiness, unhappiness, etc.).

I'm with you on counting conjugations of a single verb as one word. For variations of a word, I'd go with your original tough standards and count all those variations of happy as one too.

By the way, the Mark Davies Spanish frequency dictionary uses an interesting criteria for lemma. He counted different parts of speech as different words. I.E. he counted muerto (dead) used as a noun as different from haber muerto in (to have died).

Captain Haddock wrote:

However, the following can be considered separate "words" for the purposes of estimating one's vocabulary:

go up
go off
go through
go against
go by
go down
go on

Thanks, that helps. I was wondering how you got 50,000 words, and with that approach and reasoning I can see how one can get there. I can understand counting phrasal verbs or idioms as extra words.

I think everyone is making good points. I'm inclined to use the criteria Malcolm originally set out as my own standards. The "basic" and "advanced" levels are both personal goals of mine. I don't discount the read-only and speak-only positions others are making either. To thine own self be true.

Edited by luke on 25 July 2006 at 4:30am
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Sinfonia
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Wales
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Message 26 of 106

25 July 2006 at 6:10am | IP Logged

Malcolm wrote:

I'd rather not go too far off topic. All I really want to say here is that the standards for what constitutes a grammar mistake are different for native and non-native speakers. Feel free to post your ideas of grammar and vocabulary requirements for Basic Fluency.

No, I don't want to labour any points...You're obviously entitled, as anyone is, to your own set of thresholds, criteria and goals. In the end I don't think it's very important; ultimately it's better to get on with studying the language than to spend too much time worrying over these academic issues :-)
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Sinfonia
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Wales
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Message 27 of 106

25 July 2006 at 6:15am | IP Logged

Captain Haddock wrote:

luke wrote:

I'm curious of what each person is counting as a word.
For instance, how many words are there in this list?

am, are, is, was, were, will be, have been, has been, used to be

Word = lexical entry = lemma, i.e. something that will be listed as a
heading or sub-heading in a dictionary.

Unfortunately, the psycholinguistic evidence is that our brains don't necessarily agree with dictionaries...

On the other hand, do people really count individual words? I think self-measurement can become counter-productive and even obsessive, as various governments have shown...
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Sinfonia
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Message 28 of 106

25 July 2006 at 6:18am | IP Logged

Captain Haddock wrote:

As with my standard Canadian English, "have", "of", and "-'ve" are three
different vowels. I've never understood how people make that bizarre
mistake � who on earth taught them that "of" was a helping verb?.

Maybe Malcolm knows? :-)
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Sinfonia
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Message 29 of 106

25 July 2006 at 6:20am | IP Logged

Captlemuel wrote:

With this my first post, I break my silence and cease to be a spectator at this site.

Nice post, Capt. And I'm not just saying that because it supports mine.

OK, maybe there is a bit of that in it :-)
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Andy E
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United Kingdom
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Message 30 of 106

25 July 2006 at 7:33am | IP Logged

Captlemuel wrote:

Competent is a better and more precise term than the term �basically fluent�. Perhaps it would be best to say that the persevering learner first becomes competent, then proficient, then fluent? Fluency is an appealing word to an aspiring polyglot. But the learner who has achieved mere competency should not consider himself to have achieved �basic fluency� just so he can use the sexy word fluent in regard to his ability.

Well I'm not sure that using the word "competent" instead actually gets us any further along. Certainly it may be "better" in your subjective opinion because it's not as "sexy" a word as "fluent" but quite how you can argue that it's any more "precise" I don't know.

While you have defined what fluency means to you, I can't say that someone announcing they are "competent" or "proficient" in a language means anything more "precise" to me without going through exactly the same exercise as people in this thread have attempted to do with "basic fluency".

Andy.

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patuco
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Message 31 of 106

25 July 2006 at 11:45am | IP Logged

Sinfonia wrote:

...ultimately it's better to get on with studying the language than to spend too much time worrying over these academic issues :-)

Hear hear!

Andy E wrote:

While you have defined what fluency means to you, I can't say that someone announcing they are "competent" or "proficient" in a language means anything more "precise" to me without going through exactly the same exercise as people in this thread have attempted to do with "basic fluency".

Exactly! Well put.

Edited by patuco on 25 July 2006 at 11:48am
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Tjerk
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Message 32 of 106

25 July 2006 at 4:52pm | IP Logged

Maybe a stupid question, but how do you guys count the amount of words you know already ?

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