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Declined nouns | ||
Tags: Multilingual | Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 17 of 33 26 June 2013 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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Dutch has lost its genitive in the same manner that the Scandinavian languages have. You
can use a genitival phrase to sound poetic, archaic, or to avoid repeating "van" which is the usual construction for genitives and possessives. Dutch can even revert to a garpegenitiv. De tand des tijds is a genitive for example, but it's a set phrase implying the passage of time. "de vader des huizes", etc. Dutch doesn't really use the genitive productively in any way and any standard formulation of Dutch does not include it, unless you are citing older Dutch, using a fixed expression, or avoiding repetition. It often sounds poetic in book titles "De steen der wijzen" as opposed to "De steen van de wijze". 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Marikki Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 5496 days ago 130 posts - 210 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Spanish, Swedish Studies: German | Message 18 of 33 26 June 2013 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | ||
I think the prolative case is alive and kicking in Finnish but it is almost always left out when Finnish cases are being listed. Wikipedia explains its use pretty well. Prolative case 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Henkkles Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4254 days ago 544 posts - 1141 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: Russian | Message 19 of 33 26 June 2013 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think it's because it can't be used with all nouns without some confusion. I do love it though.
For example: "Hän levittää sanomaansa musiikitse" vs. "Hän levittää sanomaansa musiikin kautta" A case we should really bring to the language is the excessive. It would make the third three-case group. You should read about it and try to use it and teach it to people. I'm very interested in why so many IE languages have lost grammatical cases. Does anyone know of a good study about this or a theory? Edited by Henkkles on 26 June 2013 at 10:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| caam_imt Triglot Senior Member Mexico Joined 4863 days ago 232 posts - 357 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2, Finnish Studies: German, Swedish | Message 20 of 33 26 June 2013 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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According to Wikipedia, the exessive case is indeed the one that appears in the Savo
dialect. I wonder why it was not incorporated into the standard language. Do you guys use the prolative a lot? I admit I'm not very creative with it and just actively use the usual "puhelimitse", "sähköpostitse", etc. I'd also like to see some kind of study about why languages lose their cases. I've heard that languages tend to simplify over time, but that sounds as if native speakers had issues handling cases (which I don't think is the case). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 21 of 33 27 June 2013 at 12:55am | IP Logged | ||
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When one thing is simplified, something else gets more complicated. Latin had a free word order, for example, the modern Romance languages don't.
Afaiu in this case (lol) it was due to the endings becoming less clear and obvious as the sound system and stress system changed. See this. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| stelingo Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5833 days ago 722 posts - 1076 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin | Message 22 of 33 27 June 2013 at 2:01am | IP Logged | ||
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Old English.
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| darkwhispersdal Senior Member Wales Joined 6041 days ago 294 posts - 363 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Ancient Greek, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 23 of 33 27 June 2013 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | ||
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Sanskrit has eight cases (Nominative, Accusative, Genitive, Dative, Ablative, Locative, Vocative and Instrumental) in the singular, dual and plural. Hittite has eight cases as well (same as Sanskrit although no dual), Avestan has cases (it may be six I can't remember if it has vocative or ablative cases) and Old English has four cases that I know of (Nom, Acc, Gen, Dat).
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 33 28 June 2013 at 1:26am | IP Logged | ||
Danish, Norwegian and Swedish have certainly not lost their genitival -s, and unlike English this ending is applied even to things, abstract entities and whole phrases (which has lead some grammarians to dispute that it could be a case ending at all - but who cares?). And we don't have a Nordic alternative to Dutch "van", so the future of -s seems bright. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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