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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 1 of 43 27 April 2011 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This will be the first entry on what I hope will be a long log documenting my learning of Italian, Dutch and whatever may come after.
I was spurred on by the six week challenge coming up, during which I'll be focusing my efforts on the beautiful Dutch language, in which I'm basically an absolute beginner: I started (from a level of absolute zero) last week. Status quo ante bellum: Castellano: native language. English: near-native proficiency. I consider English my 'other native language'. I honestly can't remember the last time I had an Englishless day. Italiano: a somewhat blurry and hard to define set of proficiencies, which for lack of a better word I will label 'intermediate'. For what it's worth, I had an hours-long conversation with a native speaker from Florence two months ago, in which we spoke at lenght about our work, our experiences traveling, etcetera. We shared two other languages besides Italian but she never switched and I only resorted to that the few times where a certain word became particularly hard to express. Nederlands: nul. Ik spreek geen Nederlands. I look forward to sharing my travails with you all. Until then, arrivederci, en tot ziens! Edited by getreallanguage on 28 April 2011 at 1:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 2 of 43 29 April 2011 at 4:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Italiano: stasera ho guardato un po di notizie sul su youtube, nel sul canale 'euronewsit'. Ci sono clip interessanti per il suo il loro contenuto (mi piace guardare le notizie) ed anche per imparare l'italiano. Tutti i canali youtube del network 'euronews' hanno una trascrizione parziale di quello che si dice nel clip sotto il video, sulla 'descrizione' del video. Di solito leggo la trascrizione prima e dopo guardo il video una o due volte. Facendo questo oggi ho imparato per esempio dove si trova l'enfasi nelle parole 'atmosfera' (atmosFEra) e 'scandinave' (scanDInave). Queste due parole le ho trovato in un video sopra il sul matrimonio reale in Inghilterra tra il William e la Kate.
Ho guardato anche un video sopra l'attentato sul attentato terroristico kamikaze a Marrakesh, Marocco; ed anche un altro sopra il sul AMS-2, chiamato 'il cacciatore di antimateria' che sarà istallato nella ISS (stazione spaziale internazionale). Prima di tutti questi video, però, ho guardato un video nel quale Eugenio Benetazzo (un economista di destra) era ospite in un programa chiamato Rete Veneta, e diceva che, secondo lei lui, 'il multiculturalismo' aveva 'fallito' nei paesi Europei. Mi pare interessante fare il confronto verso le opinioni sulla immigrazione in Europa ed in America ed anche in Argentina ed altri paesi di Latinoamerica America Latina. I miei antenati erano immigranti, di Spagna e d'Italia. Ma chissà potrei parlare di questo un'altra volta. È una bella storia, quella di della mia famiglia (almeno per me!). EDIT: Ho aggiunto alcune correzioni che mi ha fatto un'amica Italiana. Edited by getreallanguage on 02 May 2011 at 2:13am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 3 of 43 29 April 2011 at 5:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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English: If I remember correctly, I started studying Dutch (Nederlands) last Thursday. I've been taking it nice and slow and paying special attention to the orthography and pronunciation, slowly getting used to the totally unfamiliar regularity of Dutch spelling. I've worked on lessons 1 and 2 of Teach Yourself Dutch 2003 edition and am working on lesson 3 (les drie).
Here are some of my impressions so far. I welcome _any and all_ corrections or comments. Dutch orthography: consonants L (TAAL): [l], slightly velarized after vowels. The degree of velarization seems to me at least slightly less than what I'm used to with English. T/D (TAS/DOEI): dento-alveolar instead of alveolar as in English. CH/G (LICHT/GEK): TY says it's the same sound and I haven't found any evidence to the contrary. The sound is uvular [χ] as is found in for example Castilian Spanish. I have no problems pronouncing this sound. The only thing is, I have to get used to it sometimes appearing at the end of a word (as in DAG and GRAAG), which is new for me. P/T/K (POP/TOT/KAT): TY seems to say they're not aspirated like they are in English. I'm not so sure if this is 100% true but if they are aspirated, they do seem less so than in English. SCH (SCHOOL): this combination of sounds [sχ] is just so much fun to pronounce. This is one of the reasons I chose Dutch: the sound of it is just so interesting! V: I wondered for some time whether this was like English F, like English V or one or the other depending on the phonetic environment. Now it seems to me like it's something between English F and V, kind of a 'half-voiced' or slack voiced labiodental consonant. Will have to keep practicing to get it close to what I hear the speakers doing. W: apparently [ʋ], which is a new sound for me and sounds to me like something between English V and W but closer (to my ears, and so far) to V. R: I've noticed a considerable amount of variation between speakers here (and this is just on the TY recording!), which prevents me from making any kind of analysis or systematizing so far, except for the fact that when and if it is pronounced like American English R, any following S is pronounced closer to an English SH (example: OUDERS). Apart from these and J (pronounced like in German, that is, like English YET), TY dispenses with any other explanation of consonant sounds/spelling and just says the rest of the consonant letters are 'pronounced like in English'. This is to me a bit vague and a weak point in the book. Something worth noting is that NG is indeed pronounced like English SING [ŋ]. Loanwords, however, can be exceptions to the pleasant regularity of Dutch spelling: in ENGELS, the NG is pronounced like in FINGER. (This was pointed out as wrong by ReneeMona and after listening again a few times, I agree that she's right. See her post below.) Here's a question: how is TH pronounced in native Dutch words like THUIS? I'm assuming it's not pronounced like in English (not like in THINK or like in THAT). Dutch orthography: vowels The 'short vowels' should not be too difficult for most speakers of English and were pretty easy for me, as I either had them in my English 'sound inventory' or, in the case of U, could start from English to get to the right pronunciation: MAN: [ɑ], found in English LEK: [ɛ], ditto LIP: [ɪ], ditto BOT: [ɔ], ditto (at least in varieties of English without the so-called 'caught-cot merger') KUS: [ʏ], not found in English, but, in a nutshell, a rounded version of [ɪ] (pronounced rounding your lips). The 'long vowels' are interesting as some of them are really (descending) diphthongs: MAAN: [aː], the quality of which is to me somehow between Spanish [a] and English [æ] but closer to the former (like Spanish [a] but slightly more fronted) ÉÉN: [eɪ], found in English NEUS: [øʏ], which (after some time) I recognized as pretty much a rounded version of [eɪ] NIET: [iː], found in English BOEK: [uː], definitely more backed than English [ u ] and as such closer to Spanish [ u ] BOOT: [oʊ], similar to the American English sound but more rounded throughout VUUR: [yː], a rounded version of [iː]. Now for the (descending) 'diphthongs': BLAUW/ JOUW: [ʌu], completely new for me. Still working on it SAAI: [aːi], similar to Spanish [ai] with the first segment longer than the second EEUW: [e:u], similar to Spanish [eu], see above TREIN/ ZIJN: [ɛi], new for me. I like the sound of it and am still working on it... NIEUW: [iu], new but not difficult DOEI: [ui], found in Spanish MOOI: [o:i], similar to Spanish [oi], see above HUIS: [œy], new to me, which after some time I recognized as pretty much a rounded version of [ɛi] RUW: [y:u], also new but not so difficult to produce That's it for my impressions on Dutch spelling and pronunciation so far. I welcome all corrections, observations and comments of any kind. Here's to hoping Dutch speakers and more advanced learners can point me in the direction of an answer to the 'TH' question... Edited by getreallanguage on 29 April 2011 at 9:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 4 of 43 29 April 2011 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hoi getreallanguage,
I would agree with that except the h is also less aspirated in Dutch then in English.
Does TY claim that? In Engels the –ng is just pronounced like in sing. I tried to think of some English loanwords including –ng that are pronounced like in finger but couldn’t come up with any. Does the book mention any other examples?
You’re right. It’s pronounced just like a normal t. I believe the h is there because it’s a contraction of te + huis = at house = home.
That’s interesting. I always assumed it was basically the same sound as the English –ow. To my ears, nauw and nou sound almost exactly the same as the English now. Ik wens je veel succes en plezier met je Nederlands en ik zal een oogje in het zeil houden voor het geval je nog meer vragen hebt. Edited by ReneeMona on 29 April 2011 at 3:52pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 5 of 43 29 April 2011 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hoi! TY claims no such thing. I've listened again and it was bad listening on my part. The actors pronounce both ENGELS and ENGELSMAN like SING or SINGER. You're absolutely right!
Now that you've mentioned this, I can notice it when listening again. English H does sound stronger.
Dank je wel!
The way I perceive American English as coming out of the mouths of native speakers and out of mine, the vowel sound of NOW sounds more like [aʊ] or even (especially in certain southern accents) with a more fronted first element, like [æʊ]. I guess there might be some resemblance to [aʊ] to some ears but I definitely hear the Dutch diphthong as different.
At first or second glance I only think I understand the first part of that, until the second 'en'. I will give myself a proper go at translating it sometime later. But in any case: Dank je wel voor het en voor allemaal! Tot ziens! Edited by getreallanguage on 30 April 2011 at 12:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 6 of 43 03 May 2011 at 6:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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English, about Nederlands:
Chapter/lesson 3 (hofdstuk/les drie) of Teach Yourself Dutch is behind me, although I'd be lying if I said I've been doing all the exercises, or when I do them, doing them in anything resembling the order given in the book. I've also reviewed the dialogues and narrations from chapters 1 (één) and 2 (twee), and also transcribed them, as in taking dictation. Dutch spelling is sticking pretty well and my understanding of the dialogues and 'what the words are doing' is getting better and better. In the words of Steve Kaufmann, "the fog is clearing". I'm happy and motivated. Ik heb veel lol met de Nederlandse taal! This is my first experience with the Teach Yourself series. If you want to get anywhere anytime soon with Teach Yourself Dutch, I advise being very liberal with the order in which the information is presented. I jump back and forth a lot, especially with the grammar explanations. Some sort of grammar reference, however rudimentary, is necessary as a complement to TYD. I was directed to www.mijnwoordenboek.nl by a Dutch friend. The dictionary seems to be very good (echt goed), but it has no pronunciation key whatsoever. I would greatly benefit from an online Dutch dictionary with a pronunciation key. Do you guys know of any? Here are some more of my impressions about the language so far. More facts about Dutch spelling I learned thanks to ReneeMona - NG (ENGELS, ENGELSMAN) is pronounced like SING or SINGER - TH (THUIS) is pronounced just like Dutch T. Notes on vowels in Dutch Like any good Germanic language, Dutch has vowel reduction, which happens in unstressed syllables. - E, EE, I and IJ can reduce to a schwa [ə] when unstressed. Examples: de, een, aardig, lelijk, natuurlijk. - A and AA can also become reduced (centralized) when unstressed. - The quality of a vowel can change when followed by an R if that R is pronounced 'the American English way'. De vreemde en uitstekende Nederlandse R I think I am beginning to see some patterns emerge regarding R. Here's what I got so far. The R can be pronounced: Like an alveolar trill [r] ('long' Spanish R) Like an alveolar flap [ɾ] ('short' Spanish R) Like a uvular trill [ʀ] or fricative [ʁ] ("French" R. Scare quotes included because I don't actually speak any French) Like a postalveolar approximant [ɹ] (American R) But: the 'American R' can only appear after the vowel in the syllable. As noted above this specific R affects the quality of preceding vowels and of a following S. Other 'versions' of R can appear in this position and also at the beginning of the syllable or before a vowel. I am feeling quite tired so I will go ahead and end this post by attempting to translate ReneeMona's well wishes from her previous post.
"I wish you lots of luck and pleasure with your Dutch and I am keeping an eye on the 'zeil houden' in case you have any other questions." My dictionary-fu is failing hard and so I've left 'zeil houden' untranslated. In ieder geval, dank je wel! (I greatly appreciate any corrections or comments.) Edited by getreallanguage on 03 May 2011 at 6:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5333 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 7 of 43 03 May 2011 at 6:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sorry for using an expression on you. I couldn't think of a less idiomatic way to say it. Een oogje in het zeil houden / "To keep an eye in the sail" was originally a nautical expression, like a lot of Dutch idioms, and it means "to keep an eye out (for trouble)". Ik vind het erg interessant hoe je de uitspraak op een rijtje zet voordat je echt aan de taal begint. Dat zou ik misschien met Spaans ook moeten doen, aangezien ik op het moment maar een beetje aan het aanmodderen ben. I think that may have been a little too complex again, but I'm here if you have any questions. Veel succes! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| getreallanguage Diglot Senior Member Argentina youtube.com/getreall Joined 5469 days ago 240 posts - 371 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian, Dutch | Message 8 of 43 03 May 2011 at 7:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ok, two things. First, on my previous post I said 'in ieder geval' when I really meant 'in any case'. I'm pretty sure I got that wrong, so, how is it that you say 'in any case' in Dutch?
Second, upon more careful analysis, I'm guessing 'zal' (which I still find myself unable to locate in my online dictionary) is some sort of phrasal verb, probably with a 'will' or 'shall' meaning. So here's another attempt at a translation:
Literal translation: I wish you a-lot good-luck and pleasure with your Dutch and I zal an eye in the sail keep for the case you any more questions have. Free translation: I wish you lots of luck and pleasure fun with your Dutch and I will/shall keep an eye on the sail (keep an eye out) in case you have any more/other questions. Spanish has a lot of 'sailing' metaphors, especially the Spanish spoken in the Americas. I'm sure you'll come accross them soon enough. ¡Te deseo viento en popa! (Please let me know how I did on my translation. I will attempt a translation of your other message tomorrow, after I get some sleep.) Edit: tweaked the translation as per ReneeMona's suggestions. Edited by getreallanguage on 04 May 2011 at 4:39am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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