Did you know that...? (language trivia) (Philological Room) Language Learning Forum

Did you know that...? (language trivia)
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Danac
Diglot
Senior Member
Denmark
Joined 5349 days ago
162 posts - 257 votes

Speaks: Danish*, English
Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto

Message 33 of 90

31 May 2010 at 4:21pm | IP Logged

ellasevia wrote:

egill wrote:

John Smith wrote:

The modern English word Black used to mean white.
The old meaning still survives in the word blank. A blank piece of paper is a white
piece of paper. The word also exists in Spanish. Blanco (a Germanic word that was
borrowed) means white in Spanish.

This is not strictly true.

ME black came from PIE *bhleg- "to burn, gleam, shine, flash" by way of
OE blæc "black, dark" from P.Gmc. *blakaz "burned".

Although ME blank also came from the same original root, it came into English
through Old Franconian, already meaning blank/white, coexisting with the native English
word blæc/black

Therefore the word black has never meant white at any point in its
history. It would be more accurate to say that they are cousins with common ancestry
that developed in two directions.

My Swedish book has a section on etymology and comparisons between English and Swedish after every lesson, and the most recent one discussed this:

Beginner's Swedish wrote:

Swedish and English are related languages and it has only been a thousand years since they were mutually intelligible. There are many words that are still recognizable to the English speaker. The colors are one such group of words that are very similar. It is not impossible for an English speaker to understand words like blå, brun, grön, grå, röd, and vit (blue, brown, green, grey, red, and white respectively). It may be a little harder to recognize that gul is related to yellow, but as one knows that a g in Swedish is often a y in English, that too may be discernable.

The odd word out, as it were, is the word svart, in English black. As it happens, English is the odd language out as far as the Germanic languages are concerned. Through a strange set of circumstances, our word black is actually related to the Romance word for white, for example the French blanc or the Spanish blanco, which was the ancient word for ash or something having been burned. As anyone who has seen ash in a campfire can tell you, sometimes the ash is white, and sometimes it is black.

For anyone interested in the etymology of English words, try etymonline.com

The entries for the words in question:

black
    O.E. blæc "black, dark," from P.Gmc. *blakaz "burned" (cf. O.N. blakkr "dark," O.H.G. blah "black," Swed. bläck "ink," Du. blaken "to burn"), from PIE *bhleg- "to burn, gleam, shine, flash" (cf. Gk. phlegein "to burn, scorch," L. flagrare "to blaze, glow, burn"), from base *bhel- (1); see bleach. The same root produced O.E. blac "bright, shining, glittering, pale;" the connecting notions being, perhaps, "fire" (bright) and "burned" (dark). The usual O.E. word for "black" was sweart (see swart). According to OED: "In ME. it is often doubtful whether blac, blak, blake, means 'black, dark,' or 'pale, colourless, wan, livid.' " Adjective used of dark-skinned people in O.E. The noun in this sense is first attested 1620s (blackamoor is from 1540s; see moor). Of coffee, first attested 1796. Sense of "dark purposes, malignant" emerged 1580s (e.g. black art). To be in the black (1928) is from the accounting practice of recording credits and balances in black ink.

blank
    early 13c., from O.Fr. blanc "white, shining," from Frankish *blank "white, gleaming," of W.Gmc. origin (cf. O.N. blakkr, O.E. blanca "white horse;" O.H.G. blanc, blanch; Ger. blank "shining, bright"), from P.Gmc. *blangkaz "to shine, dazzle," from PIE base *bhel- (1) "to shine, flash, burn" (see bleach). Originally "colorless," meaning "having empty spaces" evolved c.1400. Sense of "void of expression" (a blank look) is from 1550s. The noun in the sense of "empty space" (in a document, etc.) is from c.1570.

And an added bonus:

bleach (v.)
    O.E. blæcan "bleach, whiten," from P.Gmc. *blaikjan "to make white" (cf. O.S. blek, O.N. bleikr, Du. bleek, O.H.G. bleih, Ger. bleich "pale;" O.N. bleikja, Du. bleken, Ger. bleichen "to bleach"), from PIE base *bhel- (1) "to shine, flash, burn" (cf. Skt. bhrajate "shines;" Gk. phlegein "to burn;" L. flamma "flame," fulmen "lightning," fulgere "to shine, flash," flagrare "to burn;" O.C.S. belu "white;" Lith. balnas "pale"). The same root probably produced black; perhaps because both black and white are colorless, or because both are associated with burning. The noun meaning "a bleaching agent" is recorded from 1898.

If we look under the entry for "black", we'll see that ME had trouble distinguishing between different meanings of black, but not black/white, but rather black or pale/colourless.

Ultimately, black, blank and bleach come from the same PIE root *bhel- (1).

Also, the same thought as in the Swedish textbook is mentioned.

Edited by Danac on 31 May 2010 at 4:21pm
1 person has voted this message useful

DaraghM
Diglot
Senior Member
Ireland
Joined 6152 days ago
1947 posts - 2923 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian

Message 34 of 90

31 May 2010 at 5:15pm | IP Logged

Because of its transliteration into English, Japan's old capital Kyoto is an anagram of the current capital, Tokyo.
1 person has voted this message useful

pingvin10
Groupie
Hungary
Joined 6279 days ago
68 posts - 114 votes

Speaks: Hungarian*
Studies: English, German, Spanish, Turkish

Message 35 of 90

31 May 2010 at 6:20pm | IP Logged

Just a few:

Longest Hungarian word:
töredezettségmentesítőtleníttethetetlenségtelenítőtl enkedhetnétek (65)

Longest words with only one vowel:
A- altbalalajkakar-darabja, tapasztalhatatlanabbakat (9 a)
Á- álmárványsárkánylánynyál-látványánál (11 á)
E- legeslegmegengesztelhetetlenebbeket, legeslegmegfellebbezhetetlenebbeket (13 e)
É- cégrészvénynévértékméréskérés-végénél (13 é)
I- iciri-piciri (6 i)
O- korcsoportotokhoz (6 o)
Ö- örömkönny-özönötökhöz (8 ö)
U- furunkulusuk (5 u)
Ü- ürüfülkürt (4 ü)

The longest palindrome sentence:
'Kis erek mentén, láp sík ölén, oda van a bánya rabja, jaj Baranyában a vadon élő Kis Pálnét nem keresik.'

Longest Hungarian word in a book title:
A sátánármányosparázsvarázspokolikőrpuncspancslódító bódítóka (Original title: Der satanarchäolügenialkohöllische Wunschpunsch by Michael Ende)

Most consecutive consonants in a word:
karsztstrand (6)

Max. same consonant in a word:
kákakakukkokká (8)

Hungarian pangram:
Egy hűtlen vejét fülöncsípő, dühös mexikói úr Wesselényinél mázol Quitóban.

Word with the most meanings:
is – (101)

Word with the most homonyms:
haj – (6)

Edited by pingvin10 on 31 May 2010 at 6:21pm
6 persons have voted this message useful

QiuJP
Triglot
Senior Member
Singapore
Joined 5856 days ago
428 posts - 597 votes

Speaks: Mandarin*, English^C2, French
Studies: Czech, German^B1, Russian, Japanese

Message 36 of 90

31 May 2010 at 6:45pm | IP Logged

Number of Chinese characters

The total number of Chinese characters from past to present remains unknowable because new ones are developed all the time. Chinese characters are theoretically an open set. The number of entries in major Chinese dictionaries is the best means of estimating the historical growth of character inventory.
Number of characters in Chinese dictionaries
Year      Name of dictionary      Number of characters
100      Shuowen Jiezi            9,353
543?      Yupian                 12,158
601      Qieyun                 16,917
1011      Guangyun                 26,194
1039      Jiyun                 53,525
1615      Zihui                 33,179
1716      Kangxi Zidian            47,035
1916      Zhonghua Da Zidian      48,000
1989      Hanyu Da Zidian            54,678
1994      Zhonghua Zihai            85,568
2004      Yitizi Zidian            106,230
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egill
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5697 days ago
418 posts - 791 votes

Speaks: Mandarin, English*
Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch

Message 37 of 90

31 May 2010 at 10:35pm | IP Logged

ellasevia wrote:

egill wrote:

John Smith wrote:

The modern English word
Black used to mean white.
The old meaning still survives in the word blank. A blank piece of paper is a white
piece of paper. The word also exists in Spanish. Blanco (a Germanic word that was
borrowed) means white in Spanish.

My Swedish book has a section on etymology and comparisons between English and Swedish
after every lesson, and the most recent one discussed this:

Beginner's Swedish wrote:

Swedish and English are related languages and it has only
been a thousand years since they were mutually intelligible. There are many words that
are still recognizable to the English speaker. The colors are one such group of words
that are very similar. It is not impossible for an English speaker to understand words
like blå, brun, grön, grå, röd, and vit
(blue, brown, green, grey, red, and white respectively). It may be a little harder to
recognize that gul is related to yellow, but as one knows that a g in
Swedish is often a y in English, that too may be discernable.

The odd word out, as it were, is the word svart, in English black. As it
happens, English is the odd language out as far as the Germanic languages are
concerned. Through a strange set of circumstances, our word black is actually
related to the Romance word for white, for example the French blanc or
the Spanish blanco, which was the ancient word for ash or something having been
burned. As anyone who has seen ash in a campfire can tell you, sometimes the ash is
white, and sometimes it is black.

That's exactly my point. From what you quoted: "Through a strange set of circumstances,
our word black is actually related to the Romance word for white"
(bold emphasis mine)

They both developed from roots having to do with ash and burning, but black never used
to mean white as you claimed. I apologize if this comes across as overly pedantic but
this is how rumors like "Eskimos have umpteen words for snow" get started.
1 person has voted this message useful

oz-hestekræfte
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5679 days ago
103 posts - 117 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Danish

Message 38 of 90

01 June 2010 at 11:29am | IP Logged

Chung wrote:

Estonian has a word that's not an exclamation which consists of the longest string of the same vowel.

jäääär = ice-edge (jää "ice" + äär "edge")

My Farfar taught me a word in Danish (although I suspect it's a bit of a joke) which is Åååål

From memory it breaks down like this:
Å = a stream or brook
Å = the name of a particular stream, therefore you have:

Åå

Then:
Ål = eel, therefore:
Åål = a stream-eel

Put it all together and:
Åååål = An "Å" stream, stream-eel.

You could never discern the meaning from hearing it.

Edited by oz-hestekræfte on 01 June 2010 at 11:30am
1 person has voted this message useful

Adamdm
Groupie
Australia
Joined 5438 days ago
62 posts - 89 votes

Speaks: English*
Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Dari, German, Spanish, Russian, Arabic (Written)

Message 39 of 90

02 June 2010 at 8:37am | IP Logged

ReneeMona wrote:

...the longest word mentioned in the most popular Dutch dictionary is "zandzeepsodemineraalwatersteenstralen" which means "bugger off!".

I'd be interested to know the more literal meaning of this word.

I'm no student of Dutch, but I seem to be able to discern
"soda mineral water ?stein?" in it.
1 person has voted this message useful

Vos
Diglot
Senior Member
Australia
Joined 5567 days ago
766 posts - 1020 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Dutch, Polish

Message 40 of 90

02 June 2010 at 8:57am | IP Logged

Adamdm wrote:

ReneeMona wrote:

...the longest word mentioned in the most popular Dutch dictionary is "zandzeepsodemineraalwatersteenstralen"
which means "bugger off!".

I'd be interested to know the more literal meaning of this word.

I'm no student of Dutch, but I seem to be able to discern
"soda mineral water ?stein?" in it.

Yes that is a strange combination of words indeed and for the end result to mean "bugger off!", I find very odd.

Zand = sand
zeep = soap
sode (a?) = soda
mineraal = mineral
water = water
steen = stone
stralen = beam

ReneeMona, are you having us on? Or is this seriously a Dutch word that at some point in histroy has been in
use? Wat een gek woord!

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