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Spanish "v" pronunciation | ||
Tags: Pronunciation | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6009 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes  Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 25 of 49 24 March 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged | ||
Ah, thank you very much for that -- it's very helpful indeed. One gap in the Real Academia's description though... it talks about intervocalic R, initial R, final R, R preceded by N/L/S and R preceded by any-consonant-other-than-N/L/S, but it doesn't seem to mention R that precedes another consonant, like the "cerdo" I mentioned earlier. I'm guessing this can only be explained in terms of syllable rimes. I'll be listening to Spanish speakers more closely for a bit, anyway.... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5451 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 26 of 49 24 March 2010 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | ||
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It is explained here:
En posición final de sílaba o de palabra, la r se pronuncia como vibrante simple, a no ser que, por énfasis, el hablante la haga vibrante múltiple: ¡Qué arte tienes! [ké árrte tiénes]; Quiero comer [kiéro comérr]. In cerdo the r is at the end of a syllable (cer-do), thus both pronunciations are possible (although R is the usual one). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6009 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 27 of 49 24 March 2010 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Oops. Feeling sheepish now.
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| Anacreon Tetraglot Groupie United States Joined 5855 days ago 47 posts - 48 votes Speaks: English*, German, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 28 of 49 28 March 2010 at 3:53am | IP Logged | ||
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Fact is, don't think they hear a difference between these sounds, hence the confusion. Also, same reason why you can probably get away with saying either. No need even to stick to one or the other. I kind of switch it up just for the heck of it.
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| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5430 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 29 of 49 28 March 2010 at 5:37am | IP Logged | ||
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THE TRUTH:
1) in the mind of a native speaker of Spanish "cata" and "bata" are two different words. The initial sound of both words are significant to the mind. The mind recognizes both sounds as sounds on which the meaning of the word depends on. The same happens with "pata" and "bata". BUT if we heard "bata" and "vata", our mind understands exactly the same. The difference between B and V is meaningless to our minds. V is not a phoneme of Spanish. For us V is a way of pronouncing B. Nothing else. 2) One of the worst and most common spelling mistakes in Spanish is to write "B" instead of "V". For example, "becino" instead of "vecino". The same goes for the opposite, "veso" instead of "beso". This mistake is very common from the uneducated and the poor. 3) There is an increasing belief between those who don't want to be perceived as uneducated or poors that words like "vecino" should not only be written with the proper "v" but they should also be pronounced with a "v" sound. Making this difference is in fact useless. Our minds interprete "V" sounds as B and "B" sounds as B. 4) In Linguistics this phenomenon is called hypercorrection. Some people, trying to be considered as perfect speakers, make corrections where a correction is not needed, thus making a mistake. People who pronounce V and B ocasionally because they think is proper of a perfect speaker -when in fact, no one pays attention to whether you pronounce it or not- are hypercorrecting themselves. 5) Most Spanish speakers always say B. Most people who try to sound sophisticated by pronouncing sometimes V and sometimes B, when not making a conscious effort to correct themselves, end up saying B. Is funny because, since our minds don't make a real difference between B and V, people who try to make the difference usually do it just when they are conciously watching what they're saying. When they forget, they start doing Bs THE CONCLUSION: always say B. About the difference between the B between vowels and the B after nasal... B is always approximant except: 1 - after a nasal (m, n, ñ). E.g: un beso, hombro, con berenjenas, timbre, etc. 2- after a silence. I.e, generally when we start our speech with a B or we make a pause to take air before the B. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| victor-osorio Diglot Groupie Venezuela Joined 5430 days ago 73 posts - 129 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Italian | Message 30 of 49 28 March 2010 at 5:47am | IP Logged | ||
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About the simple vibrant R and the multiple vibrant R:
Look at this. In these examples, pronouncing R or RR changes the meaning. Our mind interprete the sound RR and R as two different sounds which let us differentiate two words: CERO and CERRO are not the same. PERO and PERRO are not the same. CARO and CARRO are not the same. The difference is the simple vibrant in the first words and the multiple vibrant in the second words. Depending whether your pronounce R or RR the meaning will be different. But if the R is at the end of the word or at the end of a syllable: the meaning won't change if you pronounce R or RR. You can pronounce both, is the same. MAR and MARR are the same. AMOR and AMORR are the same. CUERPO and CUERRPO are the same. If you're angry or want to make emphasis on that word you will probably pronounce an RR. Usually we pronounce an R. But it doeesn't make a big difference in any case, at least it doesn't change the meaning. Just so you know, the same happens with T and D (you can say "etnia" or "ednia"), B and P (you can say "obsesión" or "opsesión"), with K and G (you can say "acto" or "agto") and with M and N (you can say "hembra" or "henbra"). Edited by victor-osorio on 28 March 2010 at 5:58am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5451 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 31 of 49 28 March 2010 at 10:56am | IP Logged | ||
Are you really sure that agto is a possible pronunciation? The c can be pronounced g before a voiced consonant, but t is an unvoiced consonant. Sound changes like these tend to make the pronunciation easier by making two sounds more similar, like in etnia > ednia where the unvoiced t becomes a voiced d before another voiced consonant (n). In acto > agto the opposite happens. (I think you're right about everything else you said in your post.) Edited by tractor on 28 March 2010 at 10:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Hencke Tetraglot Moderator Spain Joined 6892 days ago 2340 posts - 2444 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Finnish, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Mandarin Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 49 28 March 2010 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | ||
Actually no. V is just another way of writing B, not of pronouncing it (maybe this was what you meant to say). They are never pronounced differently (at least not in any of the main variants, except for those hypercorrect cases you mention). Good summary though. Edited by Hencke on 28 March 2010 at 2:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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