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Most efficient way to spend 120 hours | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| LangOfChildren Tetraglot Groupie Germany Joined 5217 days ago 82 posts - 141 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Swedish Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Thai, Russian | Message 9 of 59 11 June 2010 at 2:27am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Interesting point, Jeff.
So you're saying L-R would be useful, but that is just too hard or requires too much effort for the average person to be considered an established favourite method. Now, I'd like everyone who participates in this thread to try and think not so much of the average person, but rather of someone who would be ready to undergo whatever activity is required from him. What if the person were to spend the entire 120 hours all in one go with no breaks in between (only with the exception of sleeping and eating)? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6229 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 10 of 59 11 June 2010 at 3:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
If you need someone else's opinion, that's a bit of a counter-indication. Natural listening in Polish took me more like 80 hours, but I did it in several semi-intensive sessions rather than properly. I didn't pursue it farther or develop speaking ability (which is supposed to take perhaps another 20 hours - I haven't bothered with that, for better or worse). I am not a model student, by any means. Atamagaii calls me a butterfly (I switch between language projects far too frequently) and s/he is right.
How intensively have you worked? With what materials? Atamagaii once indicated that under two hours a day is basically pointless with L-R; that roughly matches my experience. That number is for closely related languages; for slightly more distant ones (say, a first Slavic language for an English speaker), I regress if I drop to that intensity before hitting natural listening.
I've reached natural listening for Polish, and have lost it through two years of disuse. I haven't reached basic fluency. The L-R roundup thread has various logs; no one else has either. It is extremely demanding; after a few days of L-R, I'm exhausted. At heart, I'm a computer geek; I can work with the required level of intensity on, say, learning a new programming language. I have not been able to maintain the level of enthusiasm and passion necessary to work this intensively with languages.
It feels like a lot of time if you're trying to do it in a few days.
That is what atamagaii strongly recommends. It is far more difficult than it sounds, unless you become deeply engrossed in the stories. Good luck. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5375 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 11 of 59 11 June 2010 at 3:59am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Volte- I wouldn't say any of my work is "intense" I never have the opportunity to find a book with an accompanying audiobook. I listen to just audio books sometimes, and I can feel things clicking and all of that. I've done L-R with songs and lyrics though. Should I set aside a time greater than two hours for L-R?
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| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6229 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 12 of 59 11 June 2010 at 4:07am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Spanish parallel texts and audiobooks. See also the L-R roundup thread's resources section - it's the only link in my first post in this thread.
That's a nice thing to do, and I do it as well. It's also remarkably inefficient in comparison.
That's not L-R. For it to be L-R, it needs to be done intensively, with long texts: not short stories, and definitely not songs. I like listening to songs while reading the lyrics (in English, the original language, or both), but this too is way less efficient.
Only you can answer that. If you want to do L-R, yes; if it's not a method that appeals to you, no - there are many other ways of learning languages under the sun. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5271 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 13 of 59 11 June 2010 at 6:53am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I really really really really want to take a few days this summer and just do L-R for like 10 hours a day or something
crazy like that, JUST to see if it works. I'd probably do it with Russian, and possibly a little with German to do some improvement. I know this has probably been asked before, but how long should the material be for one cycle (listening, reading, speaking, translating, etc.). A couple of pages from a book per cycle? Or did Atamagaii suggest doing a whole book in one sitting. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6229 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 14 of 59 11 June 2010 at 7:10am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
I strongly recommend reading about the most important parts of L-R. It is not compatible with the idea of exercising all 4 language abilities at once. The core of L-R is the "incubation phase", where you listen to audio in the target language, intensively; this audio is made more comprehensible by a variety of means - usually parallel texts. This is why it helps to read the text ahead of time in your native language, why parallel texts help, why pop-up dictionaries help, why interlinear word-by-word translations help (especially during the first few hours, for remote languages) if available, etc. Listening to audio with no idea of the content ahead of time is not L-R, and is remarkably inefficient. You do not speak or write or translate during this phase. Atamagaii also claims that if you care about accent, you should not read without audio in this phase; I haven't conclusively demonstrated this to my own satisfaction, but my minor personal experimentation does point to this being true. All of this waits until after hitting natural listening; if you care about accent, it's worth working on it before reading/writing/translating/speaking too, but AFTER hitting natural listening. Acquiring a decent accent is too much of a digression for this post, but there are some key points, including making sure you can distinguish all the phonemes, not saying anything you can't say correctly, working on intonation, etc; a basic knowledge of phonetics and a good book on the phonology of your target language are helpful. I prefer going through a whole book at a time, but this isn't so important. Atamagaii has said "IF you're not capable of doing it without stopping the tape (audio file, tempora mutantur, there are no tapes any longer), you might decide to read a page (or a paragraph) and listen to the passage once or twice and go on. " Good luck. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| ruskivyetr Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5271 days ago 769 posts - 962 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Polish, Modern Hebrew | Message 15 of 59 11 June 2010 at 7:15am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
In the post that Simoteikeru (SP?) wrote, it said that there was translation and speaking required. Would this be particularly necessary? And yes I will probably be taking on this challenge, and I will definitely post my progress, especially with a language such as Russian. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6229 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 16 of 59 11 June 2010 at 7:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Those are useful steps, for gaining active use of the language. They are NOT to be done before you hit natural listening, so you definitely do not want to be doing them every few pages as you begin, if you are trying to L-R. If you do decide to do them before you hit natural listening, it'll be interesting, and please write about it - but it wouldn't be something I'd call L-R.
I'm looking forward to reading it; good luck. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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