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Passive se or impersonal se? - Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| plaidchuck Diglot Groupie United States facebook.com/plaidchRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5100 days ago 71 posts - 93 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 1 of 60 05 July 2010 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | |||||
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In Assmil's Using Spanish lesson 18 about Extremadura I ran into this phrase: "Puede considerársela una tierra de transición" the translation is simply "It can be considered a land of transition" (but we all know how dodgy the translations in that book can be).
I have been wondering if the phrase is using the impersonal "se" or a passive "se". My first inclination was to say it was impersonal since the direct object pronoun "la" is used. However I consulted the RAE and my Butt and Benjamin's Grammar which seem to imply in this case the impersonal wouldn't be used when you assign a DO pronoun (la) to an inanimate object. While in another case the la could be replaced by "le". Although the meaning of the phrase is understood, I was just curious if anyone else had some input to clear this up, just out of grammarian curiosity. I must admit although I'm fairly advanced in Spanish my knowledge of the passive voice is extremely lacking; they say native English speakers tend to overuse it but I myself tend to avoid it. If anyone knows of any resources that could explain it in simpler terms, it would be appreciated as well. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Liface Triglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/Lif Joined 5653 days ago 150 posts - 237 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish Studies: Dutch, French | Message 2 of 60 05 July 2010 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As far as I can tell, it's the passive "se".
"It can be considered a land of transition" vs. "you can consider it a land of transition" 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| furrykef Senior Member United States furrykef.com/ Joined 6267 days ago 681 posts - 862 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Japanese, Latin, Italian | Message 3 of 60 06 July 2010 at 1:54am | IP Logged | |||||
Note that this thread has also been posted here at WordReference, where it's gotten some answers already.
No, it cannot be passive "se". Passive "se" is when "se" replaces the direct object. Here, "la" is the direct object, not "se". If we were to take it as passive, the literal translation would be something like *"It can be considered it a land of transition" -- obviously the extra "it" makes no sense. I admit I'm puzzled by this construction. I would have said "se puede considerar..." (or "puede considerarse...") with no "la", but I'm still far from native level. Apparently some in the WordReference thread have suggested that this construction without "la" is at least possible. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| plaidchuck Diglot Groupie United States facebook.com/plaidchRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5100 days ago 71 posts - 93 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 4 of 60 06 July 2010 at 2:46am | IP Logged | |||||
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Yes I also posted the question there. The consensus seems to be it as an impersonal form, but depending on the style and speaker le/la can be used. thanks for the help.
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| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5380 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 5 of 60 07 July 2010 at 2:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think it is two different things
"Puede considerarsela una tierra de transición" = "It [itself] can be considered a land of transition." "Se puede considerarla una tierra de transición" = One can consider it a land of transition. They have more or less the same meaning, I know the difference when reading but I can't really explain it clearly. I'll wait for a native to clarify :/ 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5380 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 6 of 60 07 July 2010 at 2:22am | IP Logged | |||||
without the law you would be saying "one can consider a land of transition" I think you have to have the "la" in this sentence. Once again, I'll wait for a native's confirmation 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| plaidchuck Diglot Groupie United States facebook.com/plaidchRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5100 days ago 71 posts - 93 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 7 of 60 07 July 2010 at 2:32am | IP Logged | |||||
Hmm wouldn't "it (itself) can be considered a land of transition" simply be "Puede considerarse una tierra de transición"? Of course that could also be read as "It can consider itself a land of transition" Darn Spanish ambiguous pronouns!! :) But yeah I have the same problem, it's easy to read and understand but explaining it (or producing it maybe) is difficult. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| datsunking1 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5380 days ago 1014 posts - 1533 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: German, Russian, Dutch, French | Message 8 of 60 07 July 2010 at 4:16am | IP Logged | |||||
the se stands for "one" as is "one can consider" the land is "la" At least that's just what I want to take a whack at :D Is it bad I know how to say and read things correctly but can't explain them... :/ 1 person has voted this message useful |
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