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| Warp3 Senior Member United States forum_posts.asp?TID= Joined 5344 days ago 1419 posts - 1766 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Korean, Japanese | Message 425 of 668 05 May 2014 at 12:31pm | IP Logged |
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I also have to keep reminding myself that Spanish's tú/usted distinction is handled very
differently than Korean's 반말/존댓말 (banmal/jondaemal) distinction. In Spanish the primary difference is familiarity. Using usted in Spanish is not necessarily an honorific form (though some of the uses described above imply it can be), but more indicates a lack of familiarity with someone. In Korean, the difference is casual vs. honorific speech. 존댓말 (jondaemal) is honorific and its usage is based on factors such as age, position, setting (some settings, such as a work environment, use more formal speech even among people who would otherwise use casual speech), etc. Tú is generally bidirectional (in my experience anyway), but 반말 (banmal) is often not. If you have two acquaintances where one is a few years older, they would likely both use tú in Spanish, but it wouldn't be at all uncommon in Korean to have the younger one using 존댓말 (honorific speech) and the older one using 반말 (casual speech). A prime example of the difference between the two is something I read a while back (possibly on this forum). In Korean, when someone is angry and trying to pick a fight the speech levels usually go down (to show a lack of respect); in Spanish, they usually go up (to show a lack of closeness). Edited by Warp3 on 05 May 2014 at 12:35pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4474 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 426 of 668 05 May 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged |
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It's also interesting that they go up in Spanish while they go down in French. Makes me wonder what happens in the other Romance languages.
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| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5184 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 427 of 668 05 May 2014 at 4:39pm | IP Logged |
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great comments on the tu/usted distinction. It seems definite that it really varies a lot from place to place. I like the suggestion to use it with adults with whom I am not familiar.
I actually used my Spanish for something very productive today. I got a flat tire as I was driving through Newark, NJ. The doughnut tire in the trunk was totally insufficient and barely got me off the next exit. I don't know much about Newark and I am sure it is a nice place, but this area was not. It reminded me somewhat of the neighborhood I stayed at in Santo Domingo. Luckily there were a bunch of "hole in the wall" car repair shops right there. I pulled into one of them and spoke with a guy who said they were too busy to get to me anytime soon and recommended a place a bit up the road. I went up the road and the guy took me right in and we had a nice talk. He fixed me up and I was on my way in less than 10 minutes. All of this was in Spanish. Frankly, I must say that this was much easier/faster/cheaper than it would have been if I went to one of the tire places where I live. I really think the fact that I was able to jump out of my car and confidently ask if they speak Spanish or English helped... and then I was able to launch into good enough Spanish to get the job done. If I had no Spanish skills this would have been a terrible experience. Tastyonions, seeing you post makes me want to mention that I listened to about 3 hours of Michel Thomas French a few days ago on my drive. I also listened to speak and talk French by Berlitz for a couple hours. I have "started" French about 5 times now and have never gotten past one or two days of "studying." I must say, however, that I really enjoyed the Michel Thomas course. I heard a lot of French here in New York and I'd really like to get up to a moderate level over the next few years. There is no doubt about it, however, that Spanish is really a lot more important to me and I need to improve. My Spanish at the tire garage was definitely sufficient, but I did have to ask the guy to repeat or clarify things a few times. I'd like to get to a point where I can understand slurred/fast Spanish fairly well without having to ask for clarification. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4474 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 428 of 668 06 May 2014 at 6:47pm | IP Logged |
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Great! Hopefully you can get past the first few days this time. Since you have an advanced level of Spanish you should be able to progress relatively quickly through the beginner and intermediate stages of French. My Spanish is improving much faster than my French did. Edited by tastyonions on 06 May 2014 at 6:49pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5674 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 429 of 668 07 May 2014 at 12:58am | IP Logged |
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I used El nuevo francés sin esfuerzo by Assimil to study French through Spanish before i really had a solid grasp on Spanish (probably around unit 40 of Platiquemos) and it helped both languages quite a bit. I later did El francés sin esfuerzo (the older course) when i had a much better grasp on Spanish and really enjoyed that, too. You might consider something like that which you can pass off as both Spanish and French study. A lot of the resources i use to study these days are in Spanish, in particular for Catalan and Basque.
I think you'll find learning to read French is relatively simple and that speaking it isn't that hard, either, as so many French conjugations sound the same (je parle / tu parles / il parle / elles parlent) and spoken French doesn't have all the complicated verb tenses that Spanish does. You also rarely use the past subjunctive. It's also a good language to learn if you plan on learning another Romance language later, as i think French and Spanish together cover a lot of important concepts that you'll find in other Romance languages. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5071 days ago 2237 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 430 of 668 07 May 2014 at 1:29am | IP Logged |
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Thanks to Spanish, Portuguese, English and intermediate Haitian Creole, I can read French fairly well. Producing it, ¡eso es otro cantar! Listening: ¡No entiendo ni papa!
A French teacher friend of mine asked me to find her transcripts for Les Simpsons en français a few years ago ;). I can't remember now how I did it. It's been a while, but I have the link saved in my languages file. Les Simpsons Liste des scripts 23 saisons. Since you've been watching in Spanish, it may be helpful to do the same in French. You could even make your own bilingual texts from the Spanish subtitle files- easily found at the various subtitle sites. The thing about learning another language after you have one under your belt, is it's a heck of a lot easier and still fun. Now you know how to learn, what works for you and what doesn't, where to go to ask for help and how to deal with the ups and downs, etc. Raw beginners who don't have that advantage have a much tougher row to hoe. The downside of more languages is time. You'll have to maintain your Spanish or, it will start to slip back. You have to devote time to the new language at the same time to get it to where your Spanish is now. I am very impressed by those who have C-1 or better skills in multiple languages. It's a difficult balancing act. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5184 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 431 of 668 07 May 2014 at 1:49am | IP Logged |
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Thank you for the encouragement and ideas. Quite a while ago (probably two years ago) I bought the Spanish based French course. It looks awesome... better than the Spanish course. My plan would be to do one beginner course (like Michel Thomas) and then just dive into the Spanish based French course.
My problem is that I have such a hard time justifying spending so much time on French when I could be using that time to improve my Spanish. I am definitely not satisfied with my Spanish level. Doing the Spanish based Assimil (and perhaps eventually the advanced one too) seems like it would be doable and might actually help my Spanish. I listened to a few other video and audio lessons in Spanish about how to learn French and I liked it. Edit: I struggle with how much "easier" French will really be. You guys are right how I already know how to learn and I know what would work for me... but it just seems like it would still be a ton of time. If I could get to a solid B1 level on 30 minutes a day for a year I think I would do it... but I just don't see that happening for me. Edited by James29 on 07 May 2014 at 1:55am 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| James29 Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5184 days ago 1265 posts - 2113 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French | Message 432 of 668 11 May 2014 at 2:01pm | IP Logged |
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OK, I have been continuing with reading and watching TV. I read a few days of Man, Economy and State and I watched a lot of TV. I have now finished season 6 of The Simpsons and started on season 7. I also watched a few episodes of Caso Cerrado, an episode of La Corte del Pueblo and a few public access shows from a guy in Miami who does exactly what I do and has a call in show.
I must say that this week I really felt great about my Spanish. I had zero problems with a Caso Cerrado episode and would say I understood it absolutely perfectly. I can very easily understand the public access show minus some of the phone calls. In a way it is kind of funny because the callers frustrate the hosts. I also went to lunch at the Mexican restaurant next door to work and had an awesome half hour talk with the bartender/waitor. He is from Guatemala and really appreciated chatting with me. My spoken Spanish felt very good. The only part of the conversation I had a hard time with was when he was talking to me about soccer. That was only because I am clueless about what is happening in professional/world soccer circles. In the episode of La Corte del Pueblo there were two employees suing their former employer for firing them. The two employees/women were pissed off at each other because one of them allegedly kept stealing the other one's food and eating it. The victim then put ex-lax in the food and the other one got very sick. The boss fired both of them. The show was quite a riot. The judge gets so frustrated with the litigants it cracks me up. Anyway, I could not figure out for the life of me what type of food the woman was stealing. They were all talking about lonches or lanches or lanchas. I searched and searched and could not figure it out. Then, the next day, I realized they were simply saying lunches. It cracked me up because I thought I was not understanding something in Spanish and the problem was that they were simply using the English word. In today's Caso Cerrado episode there was a Cuban guy who spoke very fast. I was discouraged because I understood the other episodes perfectly earlier this week. I understood the gist of what the guy was saying, but often was just left not understanding him. The judge made a funny face and the audience started laughing and I figured I missed something pretty funny. I was a bit discouraged... until the judge started making fun of the Cuban guy because he simply talked too fast and nobody was understanding him. She actually told him to slow down because nobody in the room could understand him. That made me feel much better. I have been concerned that I don't really speak Spanish too much anymore... I am mostly just reading and watching TV. I don't think it is a problem, however. My talks at the Mexican restaurant are going fine and I think my speaking is actually imnproving quite a bit. I feel much more fluid. I don't recall any skype talks this week. I have been very busy at work. I spoke mostly in English at the meetup because there was a new guy there who spoke almost no Spanish and I also talked to a friend who needed to speak about some important things in English. On a positive note, there was a woman who has not been to a meetup for probably at least two years. I remember thinking she had great Spanish. Now, however, it was quite obvious that my Spanish was far superior. I feel somewhat funny comparing my Spanish to others, but it was so noticeable to me that it made a big impression. It made me realize how much I have been improving. I have been thinking more and more about doing more with my business in Spanish. I keep putting it off because I always want my Spanish to be "just a bit better" before I do anything. I need to just go for it. The only thing I think I am objectively lacking in is my written Spanish and I can avoid that and still help Spanish speakers. I think I might really start laying out a plan to expand in a way to pursue more Spanish speakers. Edited by James29 on 11 May 2014 at 2:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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