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What’s the level Assimil can take you to? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5169 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes  Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 25 of 40 02 February 2012 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | ||
It's an over-simplification to claim that word count alone will equate to a given level. 1,500 words and a comfortable grip on all the main grammar can go a long way, while many do little with several thousands of words, poor grammar and little speaking experience. 9 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| MrScotchpie Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4793 days ago 5 posts - 11 votes Studies: Japanese | Message 26 of 40 02 February 2012 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | ||
Completely agree but as I'm teaching my self and not using a CEFR course, I'm using this to give me a feel for when I might be ready to sit an exam if I decide to do so. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6258 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 27 of 40 02 February 2012 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Let's say that if this self-study course claims to lead you up to B2 and people routinely
fail the A2 exam after studying it, you'd see it pulled off the shelf for misleading advertisement. At least in Germany there is such a law. And you don't actually need to study the course to prove that, just compare the contents to the detailed requirements for the CEFR-based exams. Part of the purpose of having the CEFR is so that publishers can't redefine "fluent" or "advanced" to fit the content of their courses. Edited by Sprachprofi on 02 February 2012 at 10:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| MrScotchpie Newbie United Kingdom Joined 4793 days ago 5 posts - 11 votes Studies: Japanese | Message 28 of 40 02 February 2012 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't think publishers are bothered. The Teach Yourself Complete Japanese I have only teaches around 800 words and 90 kanji yet blatantly claims on the cover that the book will take the reader from beginner to level B2 on the CEFR scale. With 800 words and 90 kanji!!! I've contacted the publishers and the authorities but nothing happens. I've even emailed the European Council but they don't seem at all interested. You cannot trust everything on the covers. That's why I think word counts are useful. You cannot mis-interpret them, either accidentally or intentionally. Edited by MrScotchpie on 02 February 2012 at 10:53pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Sprachprofi Nonaglot Senior Member Germany learnlangs.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6258 days ago 2608 posts - 4866 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Esperanto, Greek, Mandarin, Latin, Dutch, Italian Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written), Swahili, Indonesian, Japanese, Modern Hebrew, Portuguese | Message 29 of 40 02 February 2012 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | ||
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Afaik there is no CEFR exam for Japanese, hence no clear guidelines. If they promised
to lead you up to JLPT 3 level, that would certainly earn them a lawsuit. Word counts are nearly useless in my opinion. For one thing, the necessary amount of words varies greatly from language to language. As an extreme example, 500 Esperanto words are enough to form the equivalent of at least 2500 English or French ones. But even in preparing lessons for Modern Greek I find that the same touristy situations require a smaller vocabulary than they did in the German lessons I created. Also, as Arekkusu already said, you really have to look at WHICH words you're learning, and which structures to go with them. If you have a vocabulary of 1000 words but it includes all the words for various fruits, vegetables, animals, furniture and so on, you're not better off than someone who only knows 500 words. A lot of courses teach you words off thematic word lists like that (and I remember a Living Language Spanish "course" that was almost nothing but) and it means you're so much worse off than someone who is learning multiple-use words of the kind Michel Thomas teaches. 10 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5571 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 30 of 40 04 February 2012 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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If I might add just one small point to this debate: most of my family has lived in
England since 1991 and my youngest sister did G.C.S.E German. I think I remember she got a B. She certainly had nowhere near 2 to 3 thousand words, could only guess at cases except in memorised phrases and knew much much less about German verbs than anyone who spends 13 hours going through Michel Thomas. No matter what they claim I'll never believe that a G.C.S.E is anywhere near B1. I did Standard Grade French and can confirm that (at least back in the mid 90s) the Scottish system was still somewhat stronger, but even then I wouldn't have tested B1- A2 just possibly. And then they wonder why we in the UK are so bad at languages! It ought to be a national scandal. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5353 days ago 938 posts - 1839 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 31 of 40 05 February 2012 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | ||
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Here is the Oxford and Cambridge Exam board word list for GCSE - Perhaps you don't need
them all to pass the exam at A*, but if you SRS'd all of these you would have a pretty good vocabulary. Certainly, one would be in the B1 range if the various French as a foreign language books by CLE are to be trusted: http://www.ocr.org.uk/download/sm/ocr_13550_sm_voc_list.pdf Edited by Elexi on 05 February 2012 at 6:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5571 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 32 of 40 05 February 2012 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Possibly you might need them all for an A*, I don't know, but for a B (let alone a bare
pass!) you can get by with nowhere near that much...plus we all know there are techniques for school exams that can make it seem like you know more than you do (hence the fact that grades have risen year on year). I don't think your average G.C.S.E would pass the B1 exam (in fact I'm pretty sure they wouldn't); but I have no trouble accepting that those with an A* probably would. Edit: even a quick google search finds academics and experts dismissing the UK government's claim that G.C.S.E is equivalent to B1 (e.g. http://www.llas.ac.uk/resourcedownloads/2715/milton.pdf). Based on my own experience I would tend to agree with statements like the following: "GCSE pass level in foreign languages will be approximately a low A2. CILT [the National Centre for Languages] is in the process of aligning the UK national language standards to the CEFR, but not on the basis of any research…" Edited by Random review on 05 February 2012 at 2:27pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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