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How many words for conversation? | ||
Tags: Number of words | Conversation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| FuroraCeltica Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6664 days ago 1187 posts - 1427 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 33 of 100 08 August 2011 at 9:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've come across resources suggesting that 10,000 words is what an average educated person in that language uses in 99% of daily conversations. Most languages have between 75,000-100,000 words. We all know that a small number of words (c.5,000) accounts for 50% of all conversation. The problem is the other 5,000 words of the 10,000 words used regularly are drawn randomnly from the 75,000 - 100,000 other words that exist in the language.
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| fiziwig Senior Member United States Joined 4664 days ago 297 posts - 618 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 34 of 100 08 August 2011 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | ||
If we stipulate that our target is something like 3,000 words, or 9,000 words, X,000 words, the next question is which X,000 words? It seems to me that's an easy one to answer. It's the X,000 words that you encounter most often. Since repetition is the key to long term memory, the words you encounter most often will be the very ones that you most often reinforce. So instead of trying to pick out some a priori list of X,000 words to memorize, why not just forget about word lists and read? When you encounter an unfamiliar word, look it up, and then move on. Don't worry about trying to force it into you memory at that very moment. If it's an important word it will come up again in your reading and either you will remember it then, or you'll have to look it up again. Either way, you're refreshing it, and eventually, it sinks in and becomes yours. The more important the word the more often it will show up. The more often it shows up, the more often you rehearse it. The more often you rehearse it more quickly it sinks into long term memory. So let your own encounters with the language not only select the words to learn, but also set the pace and frequency of memory refreshing. All you have to do to acquire an optimum vocabulary for your specific needs to to read in your area of interest. Read, and read, and then read some more, and in doing so, you will acquire high frequency vocabulary as a result of high frequency rehearsal. Your reading IS your drill. The frequency distribution of the words in normal text IS your spaced repetition schedule. (Disclaimer: I'm new to language study so this is purely theoretical, but so far it's working out pretty well for me.) --gary 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| petteri Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4731 days ago 117 posts - 208 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: German, Spanish | Message 35 of 100 09 August 2011 at 11:50am | IP Logged | ||
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How do you define a word?
Is to be just one word or are all the forms different words (be, am, are, is, was, were, been, being etc.). Are to suit, suitable and unsuitable three separate words or just various forms of one word? Definition of a word is not clear can also depends on the language. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| maydayayday Pentaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5018 days ago 564 posts - 839 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, SpanishB2, FrenchB2 Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), Russian, Swedish, Turkish, Polish, Persian, Vietnamese Studies: Urdu | Message 36 of 100 09 August 2011 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | ||
I admit I'm a chunk lover myself ! But a sequence of letters (aka a word) could have more than one meaning/use or even pronunciation in some languages. Example casa SF 1 (= vivienda) house una casa en el campo a house in the country, a country house ir de casa en casa vendiendo to sell things from door to door ►casa adosada terraced villa ►Casa Blanca la Casa Blanca the White House ►casa consistorial town hall ►casa cuartel Civil Guard police station including living quarters for families of policemen ►casa cuna (Hist) foundling home (moderna) day-nursery, crèche ►casa de acogida (para enfermos, menores) hostel (para mujeres maltratadas) refuge ►casa de alquiler vivo en una casa de alquiler I live in rented accommodation ►casa de asistencia boarding house ►casa de azotea penthouse ►casa de baños public bathhouse ►casa de bebidas† drinking house ►casa de beneficencia† poor-house ►casa de bombas pumphouse ►casa de campaña (LAm) tent ►casa de campo country house ►casa de citas brothel ►casa de comidas cheap restaurant ►casa de corrección† young offenders institution, reformatory (EEUU) ►casa de correos post office ►casa de cultura municipal arts centre ►casa de Dios house of God ►casa de ejercicios retreat house ►casa de fieras zoo ►casa de guarda lodge ►casa de huéspedes boarding house ►casa de juego gambling house ►casa de labor, casa de labranza farmhouse ►la Casa de la Moneda Chilean presidential palace ►casa de locos (= manicomio) madhouse, asylum (= lugar caótico) madhouse ►casa de maternidad maternity hospital ►casa de muñecas doll's house ►casa de pisos block of flats, apartment block ►casa de putas* brothel ►casa de seguridad (Cono Sur) (Pol) safe house ►casa de socorro first-aid post ►casa de tolerancia† house of ill repute ►casa de vecindad tenement block ►casa de vicio† brothel ►casa encantada haunted house ►casa mortuoria house of the deceased ►casa pareada semi-detached house ►casa parroquial parish house ►casa religiosa [de monjes] monastery [de monjas] convent ►casa rodante caravan, trailer ►la Casa Rosada Argentinian presidential palace ►casa rural (de alquiler) holiday cottage (= pensión) rural B & B ►casa solariega (habitada) family seat, ancestral home (usada como museo) stately home 2 (= hogar) home estábamos en casa we were at home se fue a casa she went home estábamos en casa de Juan we were at Juan's (place) ¿dónde tiene usted su casa? where is your home? está usted en su casa make yourself at home es una casa con alegría it's a happy home, it's a happy household la casa de Lorca en Fuentevaqueros Lorca's former home in Fuentevaqueros • abandonar la casa to leave home • de casa un animal de casa a pet, a family pet ropa de casa clothes for wearing around the house estoy vestido de casa I'm in the clothes I wear around the house • en casa at home debes dejar claro quién manda en casa you should make it quite clear who's in charge at home ¿está la señora en (la) casa? is the lady of the house in?, is the lady of the house at home? me he dejado los libros en (mi) casa I've left my books at home • está fuera de casa she's out, she's not at home • ir a casa to go home ir hacia casa to head for home ir a casa de Juan to go to Juan's (place) • llevar la casa to run the household • poner casa to set up house poner casa a una mujer to set a woman up in a little place • estar por la casa to be about the house • salir de casa to leave home • sentirse como en su casa to feel at home siéntase como en su casa make yourself at home • ser de la casa to be like one of the family ►casa natal la casa natal de Lorca the house where Lorca was born ►casa paterna parents' home ►casa y comida board and lodging 3 • MODISMO: de andar por casa zapatos de andar por casa shoes for wearing around the house una explicación de andar por casa a rough-and-ready explanation psicoanálisis de andar por casa homespun psychoanalysis • MODISMO: como una casa* una rata como una casa a massive great rat una mentira como una casa a whopper * un penalti como una casa a clear-cut penalty • MODISMO: está en casa Dios* it's miles away * • MODISMO: echar la casa por la ventana to spare no expense echaron la casa por la ventana comprándonos regalos para la boda they really went to town on buying us presents for our wedding * • MODISMO: empezar la casa por el tejado to put the cart before the horse • MODISMO: franquear la casa a algn to open one's house to sb • MODISMO: hacer casa to get rich • MODISMO: poner a algn en casa to do sb a great favour • MODISMO: poner su casa en orden to put one's own house in order • MODISMO: no tener casa ni hogar to be homeless • MODISMO: esto es la casa de Tócame Roque everyone just does as they like in this house, it's utter chaos in this house 4 (= asociación) ►casa de España club for expatriate Spaniards ►casa de Galicia Club for expatriate Galicians ►Casa del Pueblo (Pol) social club run by Spanish socialist party 5 (Dep) home ground la casa del Real Madrid Real Madrid's (home) ground equipo de casa home team jugar en casa to play at home jugar fuera de casa to play away (from home) perdieron en casa ante el Betis they lost at home to Betis 6 (en juegos) home si sacas tres seguidos, te vuelves a tu casa if you get three in a row you go back to the beginning o go back to home 7 (en bar, restaurante) un postre de la casa one of our own special desserts una botella de vino de la casa a bottle of house wine hoy invita la casa it's on the house today 8 (= empresa) firm, company ►casa armadora shipping company ►casa bancaria banking house ►casa central head office ►casa de banca banking house ►casa de discos record company ►casa de empeños pawnshop ►casa de (la) moneda mint ►casa de modas fashion house ►casa de préstamos pawnshop ►casa discográfica record company ►casa editorial publishing house ►casa matriz (= oficina) head office (= empresa) parent company 9 (= linaje) house la Casa de Saboya the House of Savoy la Casa de Austria the Hapsburgs ►casa real royal household CASA Uso de la preposición "to" con "home" A la hora de traducir expresiones como ir a casa, volver a casa, venir a casa, hay que tener en cuenta que home sigue directamente al verbo ({sin} to): Quiero irme a casaI want to go home No puede volver a casaHe can't go back home; Sin embargo, to sí se pone cuando home viene calificado: Quiere volver a su antigua casaShe wants to return to her former home Para otros usos y ejemplos ver main entry CASA DE CONTRATACIÓN The Casa de Contratación was responsible for the regulation of Spain's trade with her Latin American colonies. Founded in 1503 by the Crown, the Casa de Contratación supervised all transatlantic ships operating between certain ports in Spain and Latin America, notably between Cádiz in Spain and Veracruz in Mexico. The Casa also collected the levy (known as the quinto) of a fifth of all colonial gold and silver, and regulated the African slave trade with Cartagena de Indias, Colombia. As the volume of trade increased, the Casa operated armed fleets to protect shipments from piracy. Apols for the length ! Quote from Collin Spanish Dictionary; I've spent many happy hour dictionary diving. Edited by maydayayday on 09 August 2011 at 2:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| maydayayday Pentaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5018 days ago 564 posts - 839 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, SpanishB2, FrenchB2 Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), Russian, Swedish, Turkish, Polish, Persian, Vietnamese Studies: Urdu | Message 37 of 100 09 August 2011 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | ||
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And this link shows the vocabulary expected to pass the Тест по русскому языку как иностранному (TRKI) the Russian language tests, at the various levels elementary, basic, first, second, third and forth level which I believe approximate the CEFR levels.
Interesting the A2 level is required for Russian citizenship according to Wikipedia. Hope this is useful. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5229 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 38 of 100 09 August 2011 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks maydayayday for demonstrating the fundamental observation that a given "word" in reality can enter into many lexical and semantic combinations. This is precisely why a so-called small vocabulary is not really that small after all. I think we can state that as a rule of thumb the frequency of a word depends on two things:
1. grammatical functions. This includes all those things like articles, pronouns, prepositions, auxiliary verbs, etc. 2. multiple usages. The Spanish 'casa' is a typical example. A vocabulary of 500 words might not sound like a lot when compared to figures like 4,000 or 9,000 words for conversation. But in reality, as the example of 'casa' amply illustrates, those 500 words--of which casa is certainly one--can cover a lot of territory when used well. Now, therein lies the fundamental problem. How can a native speaker get by with 500 words whereas a learner may feel that they can hardly do anything with those same words? The native masters on the one hand the grammar that binds the words and, on the other hand, the semantic complexities of the individual words. Part of the problem by the way stems from the fact that as learners we initially see words in the target language as one word = one meaning or usage. So 'casa' is 'house' and 'leche' is 'milk'. But when you start poking around a decent dictionary, you soon realize that you are barely scratching the surface of the usage of these words. So, as your knowledge of the language progresses, you often end up revisiting old words that are seen in a different light. I hope that people are not thinking that I believe that a small vocabulary is better than a big one and that we should aim to learn no more than 500 words. Basically, I'm just trying to explain the observation that a given conversation or conversational universe can call upon a relatively small set of different words. It is also extremely important to emphasize that the key to all of this is total mastery of the necessary grammar. I added the word 'necessary' to emphasize the fact that just like vocabulary, certain elements of grammar are statistically more important than others. When you put it all together and throw in things like "conversation markers" that are used to help the conversation move along and decent phonology, you can do wonders with your 500 words. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| pitwo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5958 days ago 103 posts - 121 votes Speaks: French*, English | Message 39 of 100 09 August 2011 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't see what giving a definition to "word" has to do with the action of actually
learning and using words. maydayayday doesn't lose time with mental masturbation and picks up the low-hanging fruits by combining common words. this is what will make him fluent.. Edited by pitwo on 09 August 2011 at 6:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5229 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 40 of 100 09 August 2011 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | ||
Defining "word" has nothing to do with the action of actually learning and using words. The only reason we are talking about this is because at some point there is an interest in how many words one is required to learn. And there is also an academic interest for testing purposes. And then do you have to define what a word means. Other than for that reason, there is no reason to count or define words. You just learn what comes along. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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