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B/V differentiation in Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4844 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes  Speaks: Russian* | Message 17 of 32 11 March 2012 at 9:40am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
s and z are allophones in Spanish, so you might not notice that. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 18 of 32 11 March 2012 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
As I also said, if the s is voiced for just a split second it will go unnoticed (the recurrent voice chords timing problem). If the /s/ is fully voiced becoming /z/ it will be immediately spotted as either some accent feature or mispronunciation. /s/ and /z/ are not allophones in Spanish. Bad dubbers will make every foreign accent by changing their /s/s to /z/s. Because there's no /z/ in Spanish this won't create confusion, but it's not an acceptable way to pronounce any variety of Spanish I know. /s/ and /z/ may or may not be allophones depending on position, tops.
And it keeps on saying
which is the key. However, it goes on to say
which is wrong. Some people may get away with it because there are no such things as "optener" or "obtimista", but not everyone pronounces -bt- ad -pt- the same, even in those words. Same goes for the -dm-/-tm- and -cd-/-gd- pairs they mention. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| zenmonkey Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6340 days ago 803 posts - 1119 votes 1 sounds Speaks: EnglishC2*, Spanish*, French, German Studies: Italian, Modern Hebrew | Message 19 of 32 11 March 2012 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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In Mexico we do pronounce it /mizmo/. /mihmo/ sounds weird to us.
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| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4839 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 20 of 32 23 March 2012 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I definitely hear something like miZmo in this part of the song performed by Lucía Méndez:
"desde ahora mismo" She re-recorded that song like 20 years later, but the same part sounds differently to me. Is it just me, or did she modify her pronunciation of mismo?! Edited by espejismo on 23 March 2012 at 3:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 21 of 32 26 March 2012 at 1:16am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
OK; I finally got round to watching it (damn you, YouTube! don't you know HTML5/webM is the way to go?!?)
More or less. Something halfway /s/ and /z/ in espejismo and mismo, I would say -- more like /mizsmo/
This time she says "espejizsmo" the same way, but definitely /miSmo/ a few seconds later.
"modify" is the key word here. Real world pronunciation is how an idealized sound model is executed, and that is bound to be at least slightly different every time, even if you are extremely careful when doing it. So, did she sound different? Yes. Did she intend to? I doubt it very much. As we all know here, there is no /z/ in Spanish, and I think that is why we Spanish speakers don't care a lot about properly devoicing whatever /s/s come our way. Only consistent repetitions of certain patterns (partial voicing of /s/s, slipping too many full /z/s into speech) may (or may not) let us know that a speaker is from another Spanish speaking community, a foreign speaker, etc. Mere low-frequency, random voicing of /s/s will go unnoticed or ignored for the most part, especially if it's just partial, because in Spanish such pronunciation 'accidents' make no difference. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| jimmybutton Newbie United States Joined 4617 days ago 3 posts - 5 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 22 of 32 27 March 2012 at 3:18am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I read once that the /v/ in Spanish should be pronounced like a /b/ with your lips, so I
did so until my friend from Mexico told me that they should be two distinct sounds. He clearly pronounced his /v/'s. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5014 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 23 of 32 27 March 2012 at 3:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Officially, they're pronounced the same, but many Spanish speakers don't agree with that, though. Your Mexican friend is not alone.
To me it kind of makes sense (two sounds = two letters), but if you have a look at historical texts you'll see they're often mixed. It would be a modern matter of rationalization rather than recovering historical features that got lost. The same goes for u and v in some places. Edit: from Ari's comment below I think I need to clarify (or get some sleep :) b and v pronunciations were never clearly separated in Spanish. If we finally get to pronounce them differently some day it will be another late victory of logic. Edited by mrwarper on 27 March 2012 at 7:15am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6370 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 24 of 32 27 March 2012 at 7:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Heck, you can look at modern Spanish words and see the historical mixing. Comparing with French tells me that "beber" was probably once "bever" (like in English "beverage") and "caballo" was probably "cavallo" (like in English "cavalry"). Edited by Ari on 27 March 2012 at 7:01am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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