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Directness of your country or your TL | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5148 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 1 of 49 23 June 2012 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | ||
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On a regular basis we get threads which at some point gets down to what people find insulting in this or that language. Personally I have different levels for what I allow myself to be insulted by, depending on the general directness of the country/language involved. If I were to put a Norwegian measure on what I would be insulted by, I would have felt insulted, wounded and offended on a regular basis in some of my other languages.
Knowing the level of directness in a certain culture, is important when you are learning a new language, because it can help you feel less insecure. If I were to give a "grade" from 1 to 10 on level of directness, I would probably get to the following result: Norwegian: 2. We are very careful not to say anything personal which may be perceived as offending, we never comment on appearence or clothes unless it is to give a compliment. The exception is when you know someone very well, where you may of course be more frank, or if you are an insensitive idiot, which of course are to be found in every culture. English: More difficult to evaluate, as the English speaking community is so diverse, but if I am to take England as an example I would go with a 3 or a 4. They are very careful not to say anything insulting. Unless they mean to insult you, at which point they are razor blade sharp. French: Also difficult to evaluate, because they can go from the most exquisite level of politeness and sophistication, to the most rude impoliteness imaginable. In the same person. A 5 perhaps? German: Around 4-5. They also tend to be courtous, but can also be rather direct, something which sometimes may offend others - even when there is no intention of insult. Italian: I would say 6-7. They are often rather direct, but usually have a softness to it, so that you do not get offended anyway. Russian: A clear 7. Quite direct, so much that they in a Norwegian context come off as impolite - something which Russians here in Norway say they have had to work with. Spanish: Between 8 and 9. I have so many close Spanish friends, that very little shock me anymore, but my daughters who still view them with fresh eyes are often taken aback. Things which they say as a joke would be considered a very mean thing to say in our context, so I often have to remind my daughters that part of learning a language is also learning how to react correctly to the different levels of directness. So what experiences do you have with your own country and your TL countries? Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 23 June 2012 at 4:03pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4673 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 2 of 49 23 June 2012 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hmm.
Bulgarian - 6 - because when you start the topic of Macedonian language they can be very, uhm, direct ;) Macedonian - 7 - because here you have Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks. So more occasions to be 'direct' English - 6/7 - it depends, but at least Brits, Americans (from the USA) and Australians who I've met have been rather open people. Slovenian, Czech, Slovak - 5 Persian - 1,5 - sometimes they can be direct in speech... but most of the time they think how to be the most possibly polite ;) Plus the famous institution of ta'arofs... Russian - ? - it's hard to say since Russian speaking territory is soooo wide. If i would count stereotypes, it would be 8 or even 9 I wonder how will you evaluate Swedish - on one hand, there is a stereotype of their tolerance. But, on the other hand, in Swedish music and movies you can see and hear almost everything. So maybe it's like 'i prefer to insult anonymously than directly'? P.S. The most important thing - always the most important is a single man, not the stereotypes or our formal impressions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6411 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 3 of 49 23 June 2012 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | ||
In general I agree with what others have said here... Let me just mention that this is reflected in the language as well - in some cases you need to learn to say things directly, even if this sounds impolite to you. The way I view this, it's two sides of the same coin. Things you dislike about a culture are an extension of the things you like. They wouldn't be there if it wasn't for what you dislike. Whenever a Spaniard says something inappropriate, think of how helpful they've been before. Edited by Serpent on 23 June 2012 at 5:25pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| ReQuest Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4846 days ago 200 posts - 228 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Spanish | Message 4 of 49 23 June 2012 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have the impression Brits are overly polite, compared to the Dutch.
Just the way of phrasing English people use when asking a question, all the would's etc. Also replies to question: Have you eaten yet? Yes I have. Heb je al gegeten? Ja. In English you just can't say just "yes" on it's own. English is pretty indirect.... But then Flemish people also find the Dutch to be way too direct, because, we just say what think. So maybe we're just rude, I just think we're efficient (more so then the Germans who are famous for it). So for me, learning English is also learning manners to some extent :). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 4944 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 5 of 49 23 June 2012 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | ||
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You even find pretty big differences within the same country. Big city folk tend to be
much more direct in the US than others. Also whether they were raised in the north or south, east or west. I know that I, as a northerner, can regularly call out my also northern-raised neighbor's BS and just get a shrug and a blank stare in return, whereas it would absolutely wreck my southern aunt's day if I were to talk to her the same way. R. == 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| jazzboy.bebop Senior Member Norway norwegianthroughnove Joined 5232 days ago 439 posts - 800 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Norwegian | Message 6 of 49 23 June 2012 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | ||
It might be more usual in English for people to say something like "Yes, I have." in relation to being asked if they have eaten while in a more formal context, but in informal circumstances you can just say "yeah" or "aye", as we more often say up here in Scotland. It seems Scots and those from the North of England generally are more direct in their speech than those from parts of Southern England. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5267 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 7 of 49 23 June 2012 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | ||
Compeletely agree. There are regional differences and there are differences between social groups, classes, subcultures and, of course, between individuals. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| druckfehler Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4682 days ago 1181 posts - 1912 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Korean Studies: Persian | Message 8 of 49 23 June 2012 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think this is quite a complex topic. As Solfrid Cristin points out every country has its own measure of what is regarded impolite and I think it's not possible to organise them on a scale - even if I use my own cultural context as the reference point.
Korean and German culture are extremely different. From a German point of view, some common Korean behaviours would be considered either quite rude or simply strange (commenting on people's appearance, weight and age, avoiding using people's names and calling them by titles, unequal levels of politeness between two people), some would more likely be considered intrusive, but could be viewed positively as interest (questions about age, family, partners, career... very early in the acquaintance), some would be seen as polite, but can seem too distant, evasive or dishonest (saving face, deference to elders). My point is that often a type of behaviour cannot be classed as downright rude, but falls more into a gray area. It is seen as deviating from the norm - which often just seems strange, more than seeming rude. The frame of reference is too different to be able to clearly classify some behaviours on the rude-polite scale. And this is complicated by highly puzzling contradictions in behaviours (on the foreign reference scale), some of which seem very polite and some very rude, but are employed in the same interaction. In the end, I guess someone who isn't aware of the differences or can reflect on and be tolerant of them will simply try to avoid the seemingly strange person - or not get close and feel they are too different, simply based on culturally determined behaviour.
That is definitely true, but I think the cultural differences can efface these in our perception. That's the point of intercultural competency - to still see the individual behind the cultural differences instead of lumping everyone together and saying "all Koreans are extremely polite". Learning another culture's frame of reference is important because it is the only way to know whether people are polite or impolite, direct or indirect, rebellious or conforming, etc. in their own environment. EDIT: oops, slightly off-topic. somehow I got off track and thought you were talking about perceptions of polite and rude, maybe because they are often used synonymously (although of course they are two different things). But a lot of my argument still holds for perceptions of directness and indirectness, because puzzlingly for a German Korean culture is BOTH more direct and more indirect than German culture. Edited by druckfehler on 23 June 2012 at 11:14pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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